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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old April 18 2013, 10:14 PM   #106
BillJ
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Except we don't really know much about how the split happened except that the Son'a tried to take over they and then they were exiled.

Heck even the how could the Son'a lose to luddites argument only works if you believe that the Son'a who were apart of said luddite village some how got access to advanced technology that their parents who ran the colony didn't like having around.
Much of the movie really doesn't make sense where the S'ona/Ba'ku relationship is involved.
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Old April 18 2013, 10:15 PM   #107
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

R. Star wrote: View Post
The reason no one ever bothered to ask the Baku to move is quite simple. If they say yes, movie's over. If they say no, they look like first class jerks by putting their immortality above the welfare of billions. As it is, they're not very sympathetic to start with. Pretty much everyone involved in this movie makes an ass of themselves in one way or another. Excellent writing.
Another reason why I liked the original idea, though weirdly in that version the Romulans are a lot nicer to the natives than the federation is in the finished product. They're at least will to compensate the natives its just that they'll all die if they leave the planet in that version and at least its a slightly more justifiable move seeing as Federation and Romulan medical technology breaks down without the magufin. In this film it just sounds like a freaking vanity item they're trying to get especially after Picard's little speech to Soran about mortality being a good thing and who you shouldn't blow up poor innocent planets to be immortal or something.
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Old April 18 2013, 10:23 PM   #108
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

BillJ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Except we don't really know much about how the split happened except that the Son'a tried to take over they and then they were exiled.

Heck even the how could the Son'a lose to luddites argument only works if you believe that the Son'a who were apart of said luddite village some how got access to advanced technology that their parents who ran the colony didn't like having around.
Much of the movie really doesn't make sense where the S'ona/Ba'ku relationship is involved.
Like the fact that the Son'a could have just out right conquered the planet just a few decades after being exiled and let the natural particle effect de-age them over time without having to build a complex collector thing, or try to cut corners bureaucratically to the point that his plan is a house of cards that falls apart as soon as one starship crew comes along and having to rush things.
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Old April 18 2013, 10:38 PM   #109
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

I guess the moral of the story is that the luddite lifestyle is indefensible in the face of modern society, and that the only certain way to secure your claim on your own home is with a fuck ton of firepower.

Probably not the moral that the writers intended, but it seems to be what we're left with.
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Old April 18 2013, 10:45 PM   #110
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

-Brett- wrote: View Post
I guess the moral of the story is that the luddite lifestyle is indefensible in the face of modern society, and that the only certain way to secure your claim on your own home is with a fuck ton of firepower. After all, if instead of becoming luddites, the Ba'ku had built a modern society complete with high tech fleets and armies, then the Federation would have respected their claim and we the audience would have been spared this movie.

Probably not the moral that the writers intended, but it seems to be what we're left with.
Meh, the Ba'ku should have turned into scary energy beings and killed Ru'afo and Dougherty Raiders of the Lost Ark style.

Then the moral would have been never assume a seemingly primitive society that seems to know more than they should is a primitive society otherwise you get face melted.

Plus it would have restored the scariness of space from TOS that TNG, DS9, and VOY seemed to like doing away with.

And the movie would have probably been way more interesting.
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Old April 18 2013, 10:49 PM   #111
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

^ A little like "Errand of Mercy" on the big screen.

Sure, I could have gone for that.
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Old April 18 2013, 11:02 PM   #112
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

The Overlord wrote: View Post
OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post

So it is wrong for the Son'a to use force to remove the Ba'ku from their homes, but its okay for the Ba'ku to use force to remove the Son'a from the planet? The whole story is based on a bunch of plot holes, the Ba'ku were a bunch of tech hating pacifistic, how did the Son'a lose to them in the first place? Why didn't the Son'a just establish another colony on the planet after losing the Ba'ku? Frankly the Son'a being random evil alien invaders who were just selfish and wanted to be immortal would have made more sense then them being Ba'ku.
The Son'a gave up their right to live there by trying to take over.
Why? Maybe the Son'a had a legitimate point, that doing hours of needless back breaking labor to serve some Luddite philosophy is just pointless and counter productive.

The Ba'ku used force to expell the Son'a from that world and now the Son'a are using force to do remove the Ba'ku. Turn about is fair play.
The thing is with this argument, is your confusing an exile with a theft.

The Son'a knew the rules of the society in which they lived. If you note the dialog, you'll see that it was an attempted coup, somewhat different to a legitimate opposition or difference of viewpoint.

When there is an argument, at some point, one side wins.

In the end, the parents set the rules of the house.
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Old April 18 2013, 11:13 PM   #113
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

-Brett- wrote: View Post
^ A little like "Errand of Mercy" on the big screen.

Sure, I could have gone for that.
Yeah, I tend to think the Federation could use a kick in the butt every once in a while to remind them they aren't the biggest fish in the universe especially seeing as the last time they thought they were the biggest thing since sliced bread Q introduced them to the Borg.
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Old April 19 2013, 12:13 AM   #114
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

Yeah becuase kidnapping people in their sleep is so noble

relocating, not kidnapping
here's the legal definition

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...com/kidnapping

Here is the relevant part

Generally, kidnapping occurs when a person, without lawful authority, physically asports (i.e., moves) another person without that other person's consent, with the intent to use the abduction in connection with some other nefarious objective. Under the Model Penal Code (a set of exemplary criminal rules fashioned by the American Law Institute), kidnapping occurs when any person is unlawfully and non-consensually asported and held for certain purposes. These purposes include gaining a ransom or reward; facilitating the commission of a felony or a flight after the commission of a felony; terrorizing or inflicting bodily injury on the victim or a third person; and interfering with a governmental or political function (Model Penal Code § 212.1).
So explain to me how it isn't kidnapping?
Well in the UK

Kidnapping is an offence created by judges in the seventeenth century. The current definition is that kidnapping is an attack on or infringement of personal liberty, consisting of the taking or carrying away of one person by another, by force or fraud, without the consent of the person taken or carried away, and without lawful excuse.

http://lawcommission.justice.gov.uk/...kidnapping.htm

So lets break it down

attack on or infringement of personal liberty, consisting of the taking or carrying away of one person by another

They were intending to carry the Ba'ku away.

by force or fraud

They were going to use a holoship to make them think they were still on their planet, sounds like fraud to me.

without the consent of the person taken or carried away

The Ba'ku weren't asked if they minded being moved

and without lawful excuse

Whist the planet might be within Federation space, it was settled before the Federation was founded and the Ba'ku weren't informed so they could seek redress through legal means.

Looks like the criteria has been meet.

And you don't need the ransom part, if you grab someone of the streets and move them 10 miles from that location and let them you go, you are still guilty of kidnapping. As that person did not give you consent to be moved.
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Old April 19 2013, 01:18 AM   #115
sonak
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post


relocating, not kidnapping
here's the legal definition

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...com/kidnapping

Here is the relevant part

Generally, kidnapping occurs when a person, without lawful authority, physically asports (i.e., moves) another person without that other person's consent, with the intent to use the abduction in connection with some other nefarious objective. Under the Model Penal Code (a set of exemplary criminal rules fashioned by the American Law Institute), kidnapping occurs when any person is unlawfully and non-consensually asported and held for certain purposes. These purposes include gaining a ransom or reward; facilitating the commission of a felony or a flight after the commission of a felony; terrorizing or inflicting bodily injury on the victim or a third person; and interfering with a governmental or political function (Model Penal Code § 212.1).
So explain to me how it isn't kidnapping?
Well in the UK

Kidnapping is an offence created by judges in the seventeenth century. The current definition is that kidnapping is an attack on or infringement of personal liberty, consisting of the taking or carrying away of one person by another, by force or fraud, without the consent of the person taken or carried away, and without lawful excuse.

http://lawcommission.justice.gov.uk/...kidnapping.htm

So lets break it down

attack on or infringement of personal liberty, consisting of the taking or carrying away of one person by another

They were intending to carry the Ba'ku away.

by force or fraud

They were going to use a holoship to make them think they were still on their planet, sounds like fraud to me.

without the consent of the person taken or carried away

The Ba'ku weren't asked if they minded being moved

and without lawful excuse

Whist the planet might be within Federation space, it was settled before the Federation was founded and the Ba'ku weren't informed so they could seek redress through legal means.

Looks like the criteria has been meet.

And you don't need the ransom part, if you grab someone of the streets and move them 10 miles from that location and let them you go, you are still guilty of kidnapping. As that person did not give you consent to be moved.

well, the holoship was a stupid plan, like many parts of the movie. I don't really want to be put in the position of defending it as a good idea.

As I've written before in these threads, the Son'a screwed themselves by trying to be TOO clever and hiding the nature of their relationship with the Baku.

Had they approached Dougherty with the truth, the Federation could have openly asked the Baku to leave, either using the argument that it's a Federation planet, OR have the Son'a come in and remove the Baku themselves since the Federation would have regarded it as an "internal conflict."

Bottom line: the Baku-Son'a "twist" was a poorly thought out one that added MORE problems(how did the Baku win? Why didn't the Son'a return decades later and conquer? etc.) to an already deeply flawed story.
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Old April 19 2013, 04:37 AM   #116
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

sonak wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

here's the legal definition

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...com/kidnapping

Here is the relevant part

So explain to me how it isn't kidnapping?
Well in the UK

Kidnapping is an offence created by judges in the seventeenth century. The current definition is that kidnapping is an attack on or infringement of personal liberty, consisting of the taking or carrying away of one person by another, by force or fraud, without the consent of the person taken or carried away, and without lawful excuse.

http://lawcommission.justice.gov.uk/...kidnapping.htm

So lets break it down

attack on or infringement of personal liberty, consisting of the taking or carrying away of one person by another

They were intending to carry the Ba'ku away.

by force or fraud

They were going to use a holoship to make them think they were still on their planet, sounds like fraud to me.

without the consent of the person taken or carried away

The Ba'ku weren't asked if they minded being moved

and without lawful excuse

Whist the planet might be within Federation space, it was settled before the Federation was founded and the Ba'ku weren't informed so they could seek redress through legal means.

Looks like the criteria has been meet.

And you don't need the ransom part, if you grab someone of the streets and move them 10 miles from that location and let them you go, you are still guilty of kidnapping. As that person did not give you consent to be moved.

well, the holoship was a stupid plan, like many parts of the movie. I don't really want to be put in the position of defending it as a good idea.

As I've written before in these threads, the Son'a screwed themselves by trying to be TOO clever and hiding the nature of their relationship with the Baku.

Had they approached Dougherty with the truth, the Federation could have openly asked the Baku to leave, either using the argument that it's a Federation planet, OR have the Son'a come in and remove the Baku themselves since the Federation would have regarded it as an "internal conflict."

Bottom line: the Baku-Son'a "twist" was a poorly thought out one that added MORE problems(how did the Baku win? Why didn't the Son'a return decades later and conquer? etc.) to an already deeply flawed story.
Not to mention the Federation going from extremely open society that practically treat the Prime Directive like religious dogma to tossing the PD out the window and make major policy decisions in secret (Ru'afo's rant and the secrecy of everything make it sound like nobody outside the council, Dougherty and his people, and the Son'a know what's is going on over there) and (given Dougherty's sharing the benefits of the mission with all the people of the federation line) are probably going to hoard the partials for themselves and the Son'a and tell the rest of the galaxy to suck it.
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Old April 19 2013, 06:24 AM   #117
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

At the time the Federation was also in the middle of a war the likes of which it had never before seen. As history will attest, war can radically change a government's priorities.
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Old April 19 2013, 08:15 AM   #118
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
... society that practically treat the Prime Directive like religious dogma ...
No, the prime directive has always been shown to be highly variable. As seen "in-universe" it would appear to be changed and reinterpreted on a regular basis.

In the episode Pen Pals, the Enterprise's command staff couldn't even agree among themselves as to what the prime directive actual meant.


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Old April 19 2013, 08:19 AM   #119
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

To borrow a quote from History.

"Well, when the President does it, that means that it is not illegal."

So just because someone/thing sings off on something, doesn't automatically make it legal.
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Old April 19 2013, 08:29 AM   #120
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

When "somebody" signs off ... no. However, when a decision making body authorizes an action, it's much more likely.

And by canon, does the Federation even have the equivalent of a separate body that can supersede decisions of the Council?

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