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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old April 19 2013, 03:37 AM   #106
WarpFactorZ
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

TOSTNGDS9VOYENT wrote: View Post
This is an alterate universe, so size and speeds from the prime universe don't apply here.
Wait a sec here. It is an alternate timeline , but not an alternate universe. Nero's incursion didn't alter the laws of physics. Whatever the "formula" for warp speeds was before, it is now as well.

That's not to say there was ever any standard for warp speeds before, but to suggest that the timeline divergence would change that is bunk.
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Old April 19 2013, 04:05 AM   #107
Kruezerman
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

Since the speed of warp speed is never really agreed upon on screen, we can only guess as to what the speed actually is.
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Old April 19 2013, 04:13 AM   #108
throwback
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

The physics of the universe may not change, but the understanding of them would have been changed by having introduced a ship with a hundred years plus of knowledge into the timeline. Look at what is happening to us on this mundane world. Where were we a hundred years ago before in our knowledge of physics? We aren't living in a time, like the ancient Greek and Roman world, where the understanding of the universe is progressing at a snail's pace. In our modern world, there seems to be a new discovery every week I would think in a multi-species melting pot that is the Star Trek universe that new discoveries would be happening on a faster scale.
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Old April 19 2013, 04:23 AM   #109
WarpFactorZ
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

throwback wrote: View Post
The physics of the universe may not change, but the understanding of them would have been changed by having introduced a ship with a hundred years plus of knowledge into the timeline.
I don't think so. The only thing they got from Nero's ship is a face full of torpedoes. They certainly didn't share their databases. It's very doubtful anything was "learned" about the technology that would have facilitated significant advances in e.g. warp propulsion.

The only possibility is if Prime Spock shared his knowledge, or possibly they downloaded data from the Jellyfish in those few instants where nuSpock was on board. But this movie takes place 6 months after ST09. I doubt that's enough time to develop a transwarp drive, even with his help.

Last edited by WarpFactorZ; April 19 2013 at 04:52 AM.
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Old April 19 2013, 05:19 AM   #110
trevanian
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
TOSTNGDS9VOYENT wrote: View Post
This is an alterate universe, so size and speeds from the prime universe don't apply here.
Wait a sec here. It is an alternate timeline , but not an alternate universe. Nero's incursion didn't alter the laws of physics. Whatever the "formula" for warp speeds was before, it is now as well.

That's not to say there was ever any standard for warp speeds before, but to suggest that the timeline divergence would change that is bunk.
Yeah, but there's in-universe reasoning and then there's making-a-movie justifying. The whole point of throwing away the good universe in favor of a new one was to let the new kids play in their own sandbox. That means they can fill it with mud if they want and still call it sand -- which is how you get Delta Vega, a world on the rim of the galaxy, to migrate to within spittin' distance of Vulcan, I suppose.

Or build starships on the ground because the nacelles have to be calibrated in a gravity well (believe it or not, I remember reading the screenwriters spouting that one in print.) I think that's a whole lot more stupid than doing a black hole movie and employing 'simply irresistible' as the theme song.
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Old April 19 2013, 07:38 AM   #111
BenRoethig
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
throwback wrote: View Post
Frankly, I am surprised by WarpFactorZ's stance. As a college science teacher, I would think that he would be exposed to and using the techniques of the scientific method to form his hypothesis
My hypothesis is: the artists screwed up and didn't communicate with the set-designers. The scale varies from shot to shot, ergo scale measurements are useless (although I find it funny that the only scene in which the E is conclusively smaller -- the shipyards -- is summarily rejected by the Big-E booster crowd).

The only constant is therefore the exterior appearance, which matches up almost precisely with the TMP refit: the windows, the hatches, the photon torpedo tubes, etc...

My conclusion is therefore the original intent was for the ship to be basically the same as the old, but on set JJ wanted BIG -- and no one realized that BIG meant the ship design was insufficient.

Anyway, I've wasted about enough time arguing the "correct" size of a pretend ship. I will now go apply the "scientific method" at the pub. My hypothesis is: I will get sloshed if I drink beer.
From what I've heard that was pretty much the case and you'll see a bunch of really inconsistent scaling in the first movie because of it.
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Old April 19 2013, 07:52 AM   #112
throwback
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

What about the sensors? Information recorded on these devices could lead to advances in technology. Well, that is the explanation offered by the people who are making these films. For me, this is believable. Airplanes and cars are equipped with black boxes that record data on the function of the vehicle and the human occupants. It might be probable that analogue devices were a standard component of starships. There might be a third black box which would record data on particulars located outside the vehicle, such as the environment and ships that might be encountered.

These films are separated not by six months; rather, they are separated by a year.
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Old April 19 2013, 08:10 AM   #113
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

Yeah agreed. It's quite amusing watching everyone squabble over their interpretations of the size of a pretend spacecraft. But I think there's a thread for that. This one is about the Dreadnought. Please someone tell me they've found another pic of it?
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Old April 19 2013, 01:35 PM   #114
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

Regarding the introduction of the Narada into the TOS Trek universe leading to tech advances; consider Nero was around with his big super ship from the future for 25 years. While waiting for Spock Prime to show up, who knows what may have been discovered or studied, or even shared, and by or with who. Even if you remove the barely canonical Klingon prison sub-plot, we could infer that Nero sold off technology, shared it with alliances he ran across or other elements he contacted or ran up against along the way while biding his time, even the Romulan Empire itself. Poisoning the past didn't seem to be something he worried about, only surviving long enough to get his revenge. Even his hanger bay seemed to be full of other ships from other worlds... Kirk once worried about one communicator being left behind in a pre-warp civilization, consider a whole garage full of future alien tech wandering around space, not just the Narada herself.
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Old April 19 2013, 02:06 PM   #115
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

Y'all have to remember that the Klingons had possession of the Narada and had held Nero and his crew prisoners for 25 years.

That will give the Klingons plenty of time to figure the Narada access codes and download all the information that they had found.
Also plenty of time for federation spies to steal that same information from the klingons.

The Dreadnought most likely was built from information that was gotten from the Narada. Which mean, that the Dreadnought is not from the future, but is base on future technologies.
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Old April 19 2013, 02:38 PM   #116
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

Memory Alpha seems to support this theory guys;

"Star Trek screenwriter Roberto Orci (in a post on Ain't It Cool News [3] as well as in an interview with Star Trek Magazine[4]) and J.J. Abrams (in an interview with MTV, conducted between the two aforementioned statements from Orci [5]) established a reason why technology in the alternate reality appears to be more advanced than it is during the same period in the prime reality; scans of the 24th century Narada, taken by the Kelvin, were brought back to Starfleet by the survivors on the Kelvin's shuttles."

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Alternate_reality
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Old April 19 2013, 02:47 PM   #117
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

yenny wrote: View Post
Y'all have to remember that the Klingons had possession of the Narada and had held Nero and his crew prisoners for 25 years.

That will give the Klingons plenty of time to figure the Narada access codes and download all the information that they had found.
Also plenty of time for federation spies to steal that same information from the klingons.

The Dreadnought most likely was built from information that was gotten from the Narada. Which mean, that the Dreadnought is not from the future, but is base on future technologies.
See, again, I don't know if we can really canonize a deleted scene... but even if we do, we really don't know what the Klingons had, they may have attempted to capture the ship, but only succeeded in capturing Nero and some of his crew, the rest of the miners taking the Narada to who-knows-where. Nero may have even given himself up to the Klingons specifically to allow the the Narada to escape and wait out his time, saying nothing, knowing that when they do escape, the Narada is waiting for them. All the while, the Narada's supplemental crew trying to survive for 25 years waiting for Nero to return... it opens many possibilities for future tech seeding the known galaxy.

I even wonder if that was the writers plan all along, to not only re-set and alter the TOS timeline to fit a cinematic universe, but introduce 24th century tech in the mix to upgrade that universe's technology and ship design to meet modern audience standards.
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Old April 19 2013, 02:49 PM   #118
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

calamity_si wrote: View Post
Memory Alpha seems to support this theory guys;

"Star Trek screenwriter Roberto Orci (in a post on Ain't It Cool News [3] as well as in an interview with Star Trek Magazine[4]) and J.J. Abrams (in an interview with MTV, conducted between the two aforementioned statements from Orci [5]) established a reason why technology in the alternate reality appears to be more advanced than it is during the same period in the prime reality; scans of the 24th century Narada, taken by the Kelvin, were brought back to Starfleet by the survivors on the Kelvin's shuttles."

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Alternate_reality
...yes, exactly
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Old April 19 2013, 04:33 PM   #119
WarpFactorZ
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

calamity_si wrote: View Post
Memory Alpha seems to support this theory guys;

"Star Trek screenwriter Roberto Orci (in a post on Ain't It Cool News [3] as well as in an interview with Star Trek Magazine[4]) and J.J. Abrams (in an interview with MTV, conducted between the two aforementioned statements from Orci [5]) established a reason why technology in the alternate reality appears to be more advanced than it is during the same period in the prime reality; scans of the 24th century Narada, taken by the Kelvin, were brought back to Starfleet by the survivors on the Kelvin's shuttles."

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Alternate_reality
Perhaps. But I honestly hate explanations like this that seek to "explain" why the special effects from the 1960s doesn't match our current view of the future. It's almost the same as Klingon ridges.

As Roddenberry said: "What do you mean? It always looked like that." Seems easier to accept.
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Old April 19 2013, 05:01 PM   #120
Oso Blanco
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

Regarding the size of the Enterprises:

According to the Special Features on the Star Trek BD, the original TOS Enterprise is 948 Feet long, and the nuPrise is 2,379.75 Feet long ... whatever that may be in the metric system.
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