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TrekToday http://www.trektoday.com/content Daily Star Trek news Sun, 02 Aug 2015 16:53:37 +0000 en-US hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.3 Retro Review: Learning Curve http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/retro-review-learning-curve/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/retro-review-learning-curve/#comments Fri, 31 Jul 2015 21:16:02 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41256 Tuvok attempts to train four Maquis crewmembers who are having difficulty following Starfleet protocols.

Plot Summary: Lieutenant Dalby discovers a malfunctioning bio-neural gel pack and replaces it without getting authorization, which causes several systems ship-wide to stop working. Tuvok expresses concern to Janeway that Dalby and some other Maquis crewmembers are not trained or disciplined enough to work on a Starfleet vessel. Though Janeway is more worried about the possibility of multiple gel pack failures disabling Voyager’s systems, she recommends an on-the-job training course for the crewmembers having the greatest difficulties. Chakotay gives onetime Starfleet Academy instructor Tuvok a list of possible candidates, from which Tuvok selects four junior officers – impulsive Dalby, belligerent Henley, unfocused Chell, and bitter Gerron – who deeply resent being singled out for extra attention. The group complains when Tuvok insists that they remove all traces of their personal style from their professional demeanor and marches out after what they consider to be an unfair physical exercise. Neelix offers Tuvok some wisdom about plant stalks needing to be flexible, which Tuvok at first takes to mean that the young crewmembers are too rigid, then discovers that Neelix means to criticize himself and his teaching methods. He tries to get to know Dalby and realizes that some of the Maquis crewmembers suffered traumas that make it impossible for them to become contented, well-adjusted Starfleet officers overnight. Meanwhile, the Doctor discovers that Neelix’s attempt to make cheese has cultivated a bacteria that now infects the gel packs. The Doctor proposes raising the temperature to help the gel packs fight off the infection, but although the gel packs are saved, Tuvok and his unhappy team become trapped in a cargo bay where Gerron is injured. Dalby becomes irate when Tuvok orders him to get to safety with Henley and Chell, but when Tuvok himself violates procedure, risking his life to save Gerron, the Maquis officers are impressed and promise to work harder to obey the rules.

Analysis: I didn’t like “Learning Curve” when it first aired for its obnoxious attitude toward Maquis dissidents and indeed toward anyone who refused to assimilate entirely into Starfleet’s arbitrary regulations, which I thought at the time might just reflect my lack of understanding of how military protocols worked. But it rubs me the wrong way even more so now that we’ve seen some of the history of Vulcan intolerance in Enterprise, and now that we know the Maquis will be asked to give up their sense of belonging to their own cultures as well as their identities as members of an organization in conflict with Starfleet (the latter a demand that’s completely justified on a mission like Voyager’s, though I note that Worf was allowed to wear the accoutrements of a Klingon warrior on duty even when the Klingons were at war with the Federation). Of course it’s a problem that many of the Maquis have not had Starfleet training in teamwork, physical fitness, even self-protection, though I might note that Neelix and Kes haven’t either. It would seem both reasonable and fair for Tuvok to include them in a course to get underprepared crewmembers ready for life traveling through the Delta Quadrant, particularly since Kes had never left her village, let alone her homeworld, until just before Voyager arrived. The cheese incident that almost destroys the bio-neural gel packs is a far more heinous betrayal of safety protocols than the replacement of one of those gel packs, even if Dalby is rude when reprimanded while Neelix only stammers in embarrassment. And surely there are Starfleet crewmembers as well as Maquis who were unprepared to have a brief mission into the Badlands turn into a potentially lifelong journey? Couldn’t many of the junior officers use a refresher course in focus and teamwork? If Janeway and Chakotay’s goal is to get their two crews functioning as a single unit with the same ease with which Torres now works with Carey, they’d be well advised to include some Starfleet officers in the remedial class even just for show. Not so long ago, Tom Paris was a criminal and Torres was punching fellow officers, while now they’re fourth and fifth in the command chain; seems like a lot of people on that ship could use a bit of extra attention.

And although Tuvok may have been an Academy instructor for more than a decade, he seems like the wrong person to be leading an exercise in new-to-Starfleet teamwork. These angry, demoralized Maquis crewmembers need a counselor, not a disciplinarian; the morale officer might do them more good, and indeed does them more good when he lectures Tuvok, than a stern Vulcan whom they consider a traitor to their cause. I think it’s a mistake that we see the senior officers’ point of view rather than that of the recruits, since we don’t get to learn the positive independent-minded aspects of what Chakotay dismisses as “the Maquis way.” A strong left hook may get someone hauled before a disciplinary committee in Starfleet, but we’ve had such behavior by the Klingons rammed down our throats for years now as something we should admire, so it just doesn’t look particularly outrageous when a Maquis crewmember does precisely what a Klingon would do in a similar situation of being singled out for his temper. Apart from Dalby, who joined the Maquis because Cardassians brutalized his girlfriend, we never get to know the Maquis crewmembers, and the more Tuvok talks, the more arrogant he seems, like the obnoxious Vulcans of “Take Me Out to the Holosuite” rather than thoughtful, nuanced individuals like Spock and Sarek. Now that the US military and other such organizations have relaxed their rules about whether and when soldiers can wear yarmulkes, hijabs, and other items directly related to the practice of religion, I feel even more justified in my fury against Tuvok when he orders Gerron to take off his Bajoran earring – an accessory quite different from the headband that Tuvok forbids Henley to wear. The Bajoran earring is a symbol of faith. It’s also a mark of one’s family and social caste, two things that the young Gerron has lost being stranded 70,000 light years from home. Whether he had lost those already in a traumatic incident that led him to join the Maquis, as Dalby seems to believe, or whether he joined the Maquis out of sympathy for the settlers’ desire to protect their homes, like Kasidy Yates, Gerron is clearly clinging to this one meaningful relic of his former life, which Tuvok orders him to put away without any care for its significance.

Clearly, Tuvok is obsessed with the letter of the law rather than its spirit – he’s closer to being Javert from Les Miserables than was Sisko when Eddington mocked him with that sobriquet – but given the pettiness of the Vulcans we saw in many TNG and DS9 episodes, I gather we’re supposed to assume that it’s because Tuvok’s a Vulcan, for whom logic demands holding even to the most trivial of regulations. But I can’t understand why Chakotay agrees to let someone whom he thought served his own cause, then turned out to have been working behind his back all along, serve as corrections officer for other Maquis crewmembers. Chakotay’s facial tattoo would not be permitted even in the current US military, and I’d love to hear his response if Tuvok ordered him to remove it or cover it up. He’s usually a champion of diversity and broadmindedness, yet he seems amused at the thought of having four shipmates for whom he was once responsible, who are as troubled as they are troubling, put under Tuvok’s yoke. Of course ship-wide discipline is important in a crisis, as we see when it takes much of the crew working together to solve the problem with the gel packs, but a rigid dress code for people who will be working together for many years can hardly be the element that makes them see themselves as a team. It will be acknowledging, understanding, accepting, and taking advantage of their differences which will accomplish that. If the Starfleet uniform serves to bond Voyager’s crew in early days, it later serves to homogenize them; no wonder Sisko preferred spending his off-duty hours in African dress and Kira never stopped wearing her Bajoran earring even when in Starfleet uniform. “Learning Curve” fails in its effort to be “Lower Decks” because it fears to let us get to know and admire the quirks of the individual Maquis, erasing their distinct histories and grievances even as Janeway’s off playing traditional British governess in a traditional British novel knockoff. She needs to spend more time thinking about exactly which aspects of the Federation she plans to keep thriving on her ship as it creeps toward home.

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Star Trek: The Exhibition In Washington State http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/star-trek-the-exhibition-in-washington-state/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/star-trek-the-exhibition-in-washington-state/#comments Fri, 31 Jul 2015 19:00:37 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41252 Star Trek: The Exhibition will be arriving at the Washington State Fair in September.

The Washington State Fair will take place September 11-27 in Puyallup.

Star Trek: The Exhibition, under license by CBS Consumer Products, will run for seventeen days and gives visitors the opportunity to enjoy an interactive, museum-style experience of one of the largest collections of authentic Star Trek artifacts and information ever put on public display. This is a separate ticketed exhibit, and requires Fair admission. Exhibit tickets can be purchased in advance for $6.50 until Sept 10 here, or $8 at the State Fair. Children five years and under are free in the exhibit with a paid adult. Online orders are subject to standard processing fees.

The Exhibition brings visitors into the Star Trek universe and allows them to connect with iconic Star Trek moments. Throughout this experience, visitors, especially younger visitors and youth, will be inspired and motivated to seek out more education, and perhaps ignite a passion for lifelong learning and careers in science and technology.

Star Trek fans and novices alike will have a first-hand interactive experience to explore the worlds, wisdom, science, stories, cultures, characters, fashions and fantasies of the Star Trek universe. In the States, and around the world, Star Trek has become a sub-culture for many, supported by countless fan conventions and fan gatherings where many regularly gather and role-play in their favorite Star Trek characters.

“Among the main attractions of The Exhibition is the opportunity to sit in the legendary Captain’s chair where Captain Kirk and subsequently Captain Picard took command of the U.S.S. Enterprise; the opportunity to pose in front of a replica of the U.S.S. Enterprise; and one-of-a-kind displays, interactive kiosks and rare photo opportunities.”

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August-September 2015 Trek Conventions And Appearances http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/august-september-2015-trek-conventions-and-appearances/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/august-september-2015-trek-conventions-and-appearances/#comments Fri, 31 Jul 2015 18:53:51 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41248 There will be nineteen conventions, shows or appearances in August and September that will feature actors of interest to Star Trek fans.

This listing of conventions and shows features actors from all of the televised series and several of the Star Trek movies.

August begins with The Official Star Trek Convention will be held Aug. 6-9 at the Rio Suites Hotel in Las Vegas, Nevada. In attendance at The Official Star Trek Convention will be Marc Alaimo, Vaughn Armstrong, Richard Arnold, Rene Auberjonois, Robert Beltran, Casey Biggs, John Billingsley, Brannon Braga, Bobby Clark, Joan Collins, Jeffrey Combs, Denise Crosby, Olivia d’Abo, Michael Dante, James Darren, Roxanne Dawson, Nicole de Boer, John de Lancie, Elizabeth Dennehy (Commander Shelby), Chris Doohan, Michael Dorn, Doug Drexler, Aron Eisenberg, Terry Farrell, Jonathan Frakes, Bryan Fuller, Joseph Gatt, Max Grodenchik, Richard Herd, J.G. Hertzler, Jennifer Hetrick (Vash), Manu Intiraymi, Sherry Jackson, Salome Jens, Dominic Keating, Walter Koenig, Alice Krige, Cirroc Lofton, Don Marshall, Chase Masterson, Robert Duncan McNeill, Anthony Montgomery, Ronald B. Moore, Kate Mulgrew, Larry Nemecek, Adam Nimoy, Denise Okuda, Mike Okuda, Robert O’Reilly, Linda Park, Ethan Phillips, Robert Picardo, Andrew Robinson, Rod Roddenberry, David L. Ross (Lt. Galloway and Lt. Johnson), Saul Rubinek, Tim Russ, Jeri Ryan, Judson Scott (Joachim from The Wrath of Khan), William Shatner, Mark Allen Shepherd (Morn), William Morgan Sheppard, Armin Shimerman, Alexander Siddig, Marina Sirtis, Rick Sternbach, Sir Patrick Stewart, Kitty Swink, George Takei, Connor Trinneer, Karl Urban, Nana Visitor, Garrett Wang, and Michael Westmore.

Next up is Shore Leave, to be held Aug. 7-9 at the Baltimore Hunt Valley Inn in Hunt Valley, Maryland. In attendance at Shore Leave will be Daniel Davis (Professor James Moriarty).

The Steel City Con will be held Aug. 7-9 at the Monroeville Convention Center in Monroeville, Pennsylvania. In attendance at Steel City Con will be Nichelle Nichols.

The Dublin Comic Con will be held Aug. 8-9 at the Convention Centre Dublin in Dublin, Ireland. In attendance at Dublin Comic Con will be Gates McFadden.

The Windsor ComiCon will be held Aug. 15-16 at the Caesars Windsor in Windsor, Ontario, Canada. In attendance at Windsor ComiCon will be Marina Sirtis.

Crypticon Kansas City will take place Aug. 21-23 at the Howard Johnson Plaza in Kansas City, Missouri. In attendance at Crypticon Kansas City will be Sid Haig, Chris Sarandon, and Tony Todd.

Walker Stalker Con will be held Aug. 22-23 at the Westin Waterfront in Boston, Massachusetts. In attendance at Walker Stalker Con will be Denise Crosby.

The Central Coast Comic Con will take place Aug. 28-30 at the Ventura County Fairgrounds in Ventura, California. In attendance at Central Coast Comic Con will be Sid Haig (Lawgiver in Return of the Archons) and Deep Roy.

Wrapping up August will be the Bournemouth Film & Comic Con, to be held Aug. 29-30 at the Bournemouth International Centre in Bournemouth, England. In attendance at the Bournemouth Film & Comic Con will be Max Grodenchik.

September begins with Fan Expo Canada, which will be held Sept. 3-6 at the Metro Toronto Convention Centre in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. In attendance at Fan Expo Canada will be Jeffrey Combs, Malcolm McDowell, Jennifer Morrison, Kate Mulgrew, Ethan Phillips, Robert Picardo, and Jeri Ryan.

Dragon*Con will take place Sept. 4-7 at several hotels in Atlanta, Georgia. In attendance at Dragon*Con will be Terry Farrell, Jonathan Frakes, Gary Lockwood, and Paul McGillion.

Wizard World Comic Con San Jose will be held Sept. 4-6 at the San Jose Convention Center in San Jose, California. In attendance at Wizard World Comic Con San Jose will be Adrienne Barbeau.

The Alamo City Comic Con will be held Sept. 11-13 at the Henry B. Gonzalez Convention Center in San Antonio, Texas. In attendance at Alamo City Comic Con will be Olivia d’Abo and Ron Perlman.

The Wizard World Comic Con Pittsburgh will be held Sept. 11-13 at the David L. Lawrence Convention Center in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Appearing at Wizard World Comic Con Pittsburgh will be Colm Meaney and William Shatner.

RocCon will be held Sept. 11-13 at the Kodak Event Center in Rochester, New York. In attendance at RocCon will be Nichelle Nichols and Marina Sirtis.

Wizard World Comic Con Columbus will be held Sept. 18-20 at the Greater Columbus Convention Center in Columbus, Ohio. Appearing at Wizard World Comic Con Columbus will be Brent Spiner.

The Rose City Comic Con will be held Sept. 19-20 at the Oregon Convention Center in Portland, Oregon. In attendance at Rose City Comic Con will be Walter Koenig, Nichelle Nichols, and Wil Wheaton.

The Salt Lake Comic Con will be held Sept. 24-26 at the Salt Palace in Salt Lake City, Utah. Walter Koenig will be appearing at the Salt Lake Comic Con.

September wraps up with the London Comic Con, to be held Sept. 25-27 at the Western Fair District in London, Ontario, Canada. In attendance at the London Comic Con will be Nicole de Boer and Ron Perlman.

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Shatner To Pen Book On Nimoy http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/shatner-to-pen-book-on-nimoy/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/shatner-to-pen-book-on-nimoy/#comments Fri, 31 Jul 2015 18:45:58 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41245 William Shatner is planning on writing a book about his friend Leonard Nimoy.

Shatner considered Nimoy to be a brother to him.

“I’m writing a book about Leonard,” said Shatner. “I had a brother, whose life arc was so much like mine that we understood each other completely. Our age, our birth, the same types of problems in our marriages – our careers arced in the same manner.

“We had a great deal in common, Leonard and I. And thusly we were able to understand each other. I’ve lost a dear friend.”

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Star Trek Beyond Building Continues http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/star-trek-beyond-building-continues/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/star-trek-beyond-building-continues/#comments Fri, 31 Jul 2015 18:42:43 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41236 More photographs from the Star Trek Beyond set have emerged.

Five new photos show the progress made in building the set which began back in May.

STB-1

The first photo shows the bare bones of the set back in May.

STB-2

The second photo shows what appeared to be a building with some broken trees on it.

STB-3

In the third photo, it becomes clear that the second photo was not a building, but hills with broken trees. The plywood of the second photo has been covered with dirt.

STB-4

STB-5

In the last two photos, the “hills” set is being expanded.

Larger-sized photos are available at the referring site.

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Trinneer In Western Horror http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/trinneer-in-western-horror/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/trinneer-in-western-horror/#comments Thu, 30 Jul 2015 17:14:05 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41232 Fans of Connor Trinneer will be able to see the actor in a western horror movie set to release on DVD and VOD beginning August 4.

The movie is called A Good Day To Die.

In A Good Day To Die, “Baron Emerson uses his vast wealth to travel the world and hunt. He does not hunt animals, he hunts warriors. The Baron arrives at the American frontier and is looking for his next prey. An outlaw gunslinger named Chamberlin who is in jail and set to be hanged. The Baron arranges for Chamberlin to be freed so that he can hunt him like an animal in a bloody game of life and death in the Wild West.”

Trinneer portrays the hunted Chamberlin, while Robert Koroluck is the hunter Baron Emerson. Others included in A Good Day To Die include Nadia Lanfranconi, Jay Kown, and Leia Perez.

A Good Day To Die was written and directed by Rene Perez.

The movie has already made its European debut, where it was released under the title Prey For Death.

For US fans, to pre-order A Good Day To Die, which sells for $8.46, head to the link located here.

 

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Beam Me Up Scotty Figurines http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/beam-me-up-scotty-figurines/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/beam-me-up-scotty-figurines/#comments Thu, 30 Jul 2015 17:10:46 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41229 Two new original series figures feature Kirk and Spock in the process of “beaming up.”

The figures will be available from Funko beginning next month.

Each poseable figure is 3 3/4″ in height and features a beaming effect (the bottom part of each character shows this effect). “Captain James T. Kirk [and Spock have five] points of articulation and features unique accessories and the 1980s style card back design.”

The Beaming Kirk and Spock ReAction figures will ship next month. Each sells for $12.99 and can be pre-ordered here for Kirk, and here for Spock.

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UK Auction To Feature Spock Costume http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/uk-auction-to-feature-spock-costume/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/uk-auction-to-feature-spock-costume/#comments Thu, 30 Jul 2015 17:08:35 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41226 TrekUKAuction073015

An auction to be held in the UK this autumn will feature a costume worn by Leonard Nimoy.

The Prop Store and Odeon Entertainment Memorabilia Live Auction will take place September 23.

The catalog for the auction isn’t available yet, but at least two Star Trek items will be auctioned.

A costume worn by Nimoy during the second season (blue shirt and black trousers) will be up for auction, and is expected to fetch up to £70,000.

Also in the auction will be a model starship used in The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine.

Other non-Trek items of interest include a Star Wars stormtrooper helmet, Arnold Schwarzenegger‘s jacket from Terminator 3, a Lord of the Rings Witch King’s dagger, and a set of claws worn by Hugh Jackman in X2:X-Men United.

In all, four-hundred-and-fifty items will be auctioned.

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Pine To Star In Wonder Woman http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/pine-to-star-in-wonder-woman/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/pine-to-star-in-wonder-woman/#comments Wed, 29 Jul 2015 17:57:20 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41222 PineWonderWoman052815

Back in May, TrekToday reported that Chris Pine was in negotiations to star in Warner Bros. Wonder Woman; today comes word that Pine has signed on for the role.

Pine will be playing Steve Trevor, Diana Prince’s love interest.

In the Wonder Woman comics, Trevor “was an intelligence officer in the United States Army during World War II whose plane crashed on Paradise Island, the isolated homeland of the Amazons. He was nursed back to health by the Amazon princess Diana, who fell in love with him and followed him when he returned to the outside world. There she became Wonder Woman (and also his co-worker, Diana Prince).”

Pine’s deal reportedly includes sequel options.

Written by Jason Fuchs, Wonder Woman will be directed by Patty Jenkins. Pine will be starring with Gal Gadot, who will take on the role of Diana Prince.

Wonder Woman will be released June 23, 2017.

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Pegg Teases Elba Character http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/pegg-teases-elba-character/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/pegg-teases-elba-character/#comments Wed, 29 Jul 2015 17:54:46 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41218 Elba072915

Simon Pegg spoke briefly about the character that Idris Elba will be playing in Star Trek Beyond.

The character that Elba will be playing will be unique, Pegg promised.

“It’s a really interesting, complex character,” said Pegg. “We shouldn’t expect to see anything like Benedict Cumberbatch‘s creepy genius Khan from Star Trek Into Darkness in Elba’s performance, however. His performance is all his own.”

There’s a good reason that Elba’s villain is different than Cumberbatch’s. “Only because it would be a retread,” said Pegg. “What we don’t want to do is have the same kind of villain with the same motivation.”

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Old April 16 2013, 03:13 AM   #1
indolover
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Have we ever seen subspecies in Trek?

We've seen races (black and white Vulcans for instance) but have we ever seen subspecies?

the closest I can think of are the Andorians and Aenar, since I'm not sure if they are races in the strict sense.
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Old April 16 2013, 03:24 AM   #2
Silvercrest
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Re: Have we ever seen subspecies in Trek?

The Mintakans may have been a subspecies of Vulcans. Onscreen they were referred to as "proto-Vulcan", but I don't know how that was intended.
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Old April 16 2013, 03:43 AM   #3
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Re: Have we ever seen subspecies in Trek?

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
The Mintakans may have been a subspecies of Vulcans. Onscreen they were referred to as "proto-Vulcan", but I don't know how that was intended.
I think proto-Vulcan meant they were following a parallel evolutionary path to Vulcans, not really subspecies.

Would Romulans be considered a subspecies of Vulcans? Or vice-versa? Remans a subspecies of Romulans?
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Old April 16 2013, 03:55 AM   #4
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Re: Have we ever seen subspecies in Trek?

During TOS, the make up on the actors portraying Klingons varied from episode to episode. In-unverse this could be explained as races within the basic Klingon species.

The planet Cheron, had (at least) two. One black/white, the other white/black.

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Old April 16 2013, 04:23 AM   #5
Silvercrest
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Re: Have we ever seen subspecies in Trek?

Oooh, good one!

Of course, the question is which one was the subspecies. And you can't ask Bele and Lokai, because you'll never hear the end of it.
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Old April 16 2013, 04:33 AM   #6
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Have we ever seen subspecies in Trek?

Trill have spotty and forehead varieties.
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Old April 16 2013, 04:39 AM   #7
scotpens
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Re: Have we ever seen subspecies in Trek?

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
. . . Of course, the question is which one was the subspecies. And you can't ask Bele and Lokai, because you'll never hear the end of it.
I sure as hell don't want to hear those two shouting clichs at each other for another hour!

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Would Romulans be considered a subspecies of Vulcans? Or vice-versa? Remans a subspecies of Romulans?
In "Balance of Terror," Spock says he thinks it "likely" that the Romulans are "an offshoot of my Vulcan blood."

According to TMOST:
The Romulans are an off-shoot of the Vulcan race, but lost contact with the Vulcans in the distant past. The two races are physically almost identical, and it is extremely difficult to tell them apart, even with sensor readings.
(Of course, "race" in Trek is used pretty much interchangeably with "species.")

I'm sure there's plenty of post-TOS canon/fanon on Romulan origins.
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Old April 16 2013, 04:50 AM   #8
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Re: Have we ever seen subspecies in Trek?

The Aenar were actually referred to onscreen as a subspecies.
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Old April 16 2013, 09:38 PM   #9
Mojochi
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Re: Have we ever seen subspecies in Trek?

They're all subspecies of whatever that lady in "The Chase" was
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Old April 16 2013, 10:10 PM   #10
R. Star
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Re: Have we ever seen subspecies in Trek?

Mojochi wrote: View Post
They're all subspecies of whatever that lady in "The Chase" was
A proto-Founder?
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Old April 16 2013, 10:49 PM   #11
Timelord Victorious
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Re: Have we ever seen subspecies in Trek?

What is a sub-species anyway?

Species is defined as a number of living organisms that can unterbreed ith each other.

Do you mean by sub-species an off shoot of the population that underwent some evolutionary changes but hasn't diverged so far that interbreeding became impossible?

Which branch becomes the sub-species in that case? The one with the smaller Population? Or the one that diverged more obviously from the nearest common ancestor? Or the cultural less dominant one?
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Old April 18 2013, 07:42 PM   #12
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Re: Have we ever seen subspecies in Trek?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Mojochi wrote: View Post
They're all subspecies of whatever that lady in "The Chase" was
A proto-Founder?
Pretty much, yeah (use of the same actress notwithstanding) - or Preserver. For the most part, it would appear that, with some minor biological divergences like organ placement and skeletal-muscular configuration, most "major" humanoid races can interbreed in the Trek universe. We've seen Vulcan/Human (Spock), Vulcan/Romulan (Saavik), Romulan/Human (Sela), Klingon/Human (K'Ehleyr, Torres), Klingon/Romulan (the myriad kids from "Birthright"), Cardassian/Bajoran (Ziyal and tons of Occupation Children), Betazoid/Human (Troi), etc., etc. and so on.

While I'm not a biologist, it would definitely seem that all these different-yet-similar races are subspecies of the female humanoid from "The Chase" and are, for the most part, genetically compatible.

What I find most fascinating (and amusing), is that we see the torture and general ridicule that Spock endured at the hands of his classmates and other members of both Vulcan and Human society throughout his life, yet Sela seems to have been so completely accepted into the Romulan social structure, that she attained a high rank and command of her own, and at a far younger age than Spock did. One could almost think that the Romulans were far more socially and psychologically developed than the Vulcans OR Humans were. I also find it intriguing that they both shunned their Human half quite thoroughly in addition to being treated oppositely by the cultures they embraced. For that matter, while I despise Nemesis as a film, that same acceptance applied in the Reman culture to Shinzon. He didn't even have Reman or Romulan DNA like Sela, yet he was fully accepted by the Remans and feared and respected by the Romulans alike. Based on early Vulcan attitudes towards Humans in Enterprise, I cannot ever imagine seeing any Human child having been fully accepted like that on Vulcan, much less hold any kind of position of authority in their society.
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Old April 20 2013, 03:56 PM   #13
Timo
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Re: Have we ever seen subspecies in Trek?

Which branch becomes the sub-species in that case? The one with the smaller Population? Or the one that diverged more obviously from the nearest common ancestor? Or the cultural less dominant one?
Or perhaps the one that traveled, as opposed to the one that stayed put in the area where it still remains dominant? That'd make the ridgeheaded Romulans a subspecies, and Vulcans the mother species, even if the Mintakan doubletalk suggests the ridges are the "more original" phenotype.

Ultimately, I guess "subspecies" and "race" and "breed" are interchangeable, but only technically: politics and fashion dictate which is the applicable term at a given time and place.

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Old April 20 2013, 04:32 PM   #14
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Re: Have we ever seen subspecies in Trek?

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
Pretty much, yeah (use of the same actress notwithstanding) - or Preserver.
No. People keep making that mistake. Yes, the Preservers and the "Chase" humanoids were both meant as excuses for using humanoid aliens, but otherwise they're completely, profoundly different. The First Humanoids existed 4 billion years ago and seeded the primordial soup of uninhabited worlds with DNA programmed to promote the evolution of humanoid life. The Preservers only transplanted existing populations from one planet to another, and their one confirmed act of transplantation was historically quite recent, no earlier than the 17th century judging from the culture of the Native American community in "The Paradise Syndrome" (and from the fact that they wouldn't have needed to transplant Native Americans until they were endangered by European colonization and disease).

And I'm surprised that nobody ever mixes them up with Sargon's people from "Return to Tomorrow," who were also an excuse for humanoid aliens -- they colonized multiple worlds between 500,000 and 600,000 years ago and may have been the ancestors of many humanoid and Vulcanoid populations (though not humans, according to the episode).

As I see it, the "Chase" humanoids were responsible for all humanoid forms, including exotic types like Cardassians, Klingons, and Hirogen; Sargon's people are the ancestors of the more human-looking species like Vulcans, Bajorans, Deltans, Betazoids, and Argelians; and the Preservers are only responsible for some of the duplicate cultures like Miramanee's people and perhaps the "Bread and Circuses" Romans. I also think the Preservers may actually be the Vians from "The Empath," since they were doing the exact same thing, transplanting an endangered population to a new homeworld.


For the most part, it would appear that, with some minor biological divergences like organ placement and skeletal-muscular configuration, most "major" humanoid races can interbreed in the Trek universe.
Yes, but it's often been shown to require technological intervention to make it happen. Various tie-ins and Roddenberry's Inside Star Trek record album claimed that Spock's conception and gestation had required artificial intervention, and ENT's Terra Prime duology pretty much canonized that human-Vulcan children wouldn't happen just by accident. And DS9 established that Trill-Klingon hybrid conception would require extensive medical intervention. Although there have been other cases where hybrid offspring have been apparently accidental, like Tora Ziyal and other Cardassian-Bajoran hybrids.

Vulcan/Romulan (Saavik)
Doesn't count as interspecies. Romulans only diverged from the Vulcan population about 2000 years earlier, not enough time for speciation. Biologically, they are Vulcan. (Which means that a Romulan-human hybrid like Sela falls into the same category as a Vulcan-human hybrid like Spock.)


What I find most fascinating (and amusing), is that we see the torture and general ridicule that Spock endured at the hands of his classmates and other members of both Vulcan and Human society throughout his life, yet Sela seems to have been so completely accepted into the Romulan social structure, that she attained a high rank and command of her own, and at a far younger age than Spock did.
Or maybe she suffered the same persecution but fought her way up through the ranks and earned a high status despite her origins.

Also, remember, Spock would've been admitted into the Vulcan Science Academy at 18 if he hadn't chosen to rebel against Sarek's wishes and join Starfleet instead. If he'd stayed, he probably would've earned high academic honors and achieved a prominent standing in Vulcan academia, or perhaps followed his father into the diplomatic corps, at a comparatively young age. Not to mention that when he was in Starfleet, he wasn't actively pursuing command rank, preferring to remain a scientist. He only accepted captaincy of the Enterprise once it became an Academy training vessel, so he was basically functioning as a teacher. Sela was far more ambitious, and rather than rebelling against her society, she strove to gain acceptance within it, most likely to compensate for her outcast status by birth.


For that matter, while I despise Nemesis as a film, that same acceptance applied in the Reman culture to Shinzon. He didn't even have Reman or Romulan DNA like Sela, yet he was fully accepted by the Remans and feared and respected by the Romulans alike.
Oh, hardly. The Romulan military respected his prowess as a warrior to some degree, yes, but his allies in the coup were just using him as a figurehead, believing they'd be able to control his ambition and ultimately dominate him. It was an alliance for political convenience, but there was plenty of mutual resentment on a personal level.

Not to mention that he was enslaved by the Romulans for many years and had to fight his way out of the mines. If the Romulans were as racially enlightened as you say, they wouldn't enslave non-Romulans in such hellish conditions, or use them as disposable cannon fodder. Shinzon rising to any kind of status within the Empire was an anomaly due to his exceptional prowess and leadership skills (he was, after all, essentially Jean-Luc Picard). He became what he was despite the institutionalized discrimination against him.
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Old April 20 2013, 06:26 PM   #15
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Re: Have we ever seen subspecies in Trek?

it's often been shown to require technological intervention to make it happen
...And with technological intervention, you can breed a human/computer hybrid if you want to. When species start dabbling with such interventions, the very concept of species becomes outdated.

Biologically, they are Vulcan.
Unless they came in distinct varieties even before the Romulan departure - namely, ridges vs. smooth foreheads. Still nothing to stand out in a standard starship-level scan, as we learn, but distinct enough to qualify for a case in point in the debate at hand.

Or maybe she suffered the same persecution but fought her way up through the ranks and earned a high status despite her origins.
Or, option three, she continues to be treated as manure, and her attaining a military command position is just a further example of her being considered slave breed - much like Shinzon being given a commanding role was. She gets all the impossible assignments, even if the definition of "cannon fodder" in the intelligence circles may be less gory than in the space infantry branch. Holding rank need not equate with being appreciated, respected or even tolerated.

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