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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old April 18 2013, 07:20 PM   #91
The Overlord
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
I don't think the Baku are asses at all. That planet is their home, and has been for a long time. They have as much right to live in their home as you do yours.

I'm sure they would be amenable to the rings being studied, and might be willing to provide insights into it, were it not for the Sona.

If I were being kicked out of my home of hundreds of years, I'd be "an ass" too.
So it is wrong for the Son'a to use force to remove the Ba'ku from their homes, but its okay for the Ba'ku to use force to remove the Son'a from the planet? The whole story is based on a bunch of plot holes, the Ba'ku were a bunch of tech hating pacifistic, how did the Son'a lose to them in the first place? Why didn't the Son'a just establish another colony on the planet after losing the Ba'ku? Frankly the Son'a being random evil alien invaders who were just selfish and wanted to be immortal would have made more sense then them being Ba'ku.
The Son'a gave up their right to live there by trying to take over.
Why? Maybe the Son'a had a legitimate point, that doing hours of needless back breaking labor to serve some Luddite philosophy is just pointless and counter productive.

The Ba'ku used force to expell the Son'a from that world and now the Son'a are using force to do remove the Ba'ku. Turn about is fair play.
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Old April 18 2013, 07:22 PM   #92
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
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I would have though the stuff from the shows and at the beginning of the this freaking movie that showed how a planet goes about becoming part of the federation would have clued you in on that.

But since it didn't, The three ways shown were 1) the federation colonizes an empty planet, and 2) A planet that people already live on has to go through a lengthy application process to join, 3) The Federation Council likely with the cooperation of the locals (seeing as the one time this was shown the locals had a diplomatic meet and greet) can give a planet protectorate status. But basically what it boils down to is they pretty much need consent of the people living on the planet.
You forgot one option: the future member species of the federation bring into the federation the territory they previously had.
I don't recall the Ba'Ku's original homeworld joining the Federation at any point during or before the events of the film.
The baku were NOT on their original homeworld.
They settled a planet belonging to one of the species which will subsequently joined the federation.
That makes the baku tresspassers.

In this case - the planet the baku were settling belonged to a future member of the federation.
All other options you mentioned are excluded - the federation does not claim already inhabited planetary systems.
Much like the Ba'ku planet.
Yes.
Which means the federation - or one of the species which will join the federation - claimed that solar system BEFORE the baku settled it.

After the baku settled that solar system, the federation would not have claimed it.

Actually its not eminent domain

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...eminent+domain

here is the relevant quote

So explain to me oh expert of the law just how grabbing the Ba'ku in their sleep and dumping them on another planet equates giving them the right of due process?
First - you went from ~'the federation is not like USA' to ~'the federation's law on eminent domain is just like today's liberal democracies'?
You DO tend to make things up. Of course, baseless assertions remain worthless.

Second - you went from ~'the federaion had no right to remove the baku from the planet' to ~'the federation had no right to remove the baku from their planet without due process'?
You're making progress.

To answer your question, under current eminent domain law, as legiferated in liberal democracies, yes, the baku were denied due process - a right they legally had.
And any such process would have only one outcome - unless the judge and jury are sociopathic: the baku will be moved to another similar planet, given the immortality drug (along with billions of other peoples) and the rings are mined for the immortality drug.
The losses/gains weighing on the two sides of the balance are far too disproportionate for another decision.

BTW, the liberal democracies have eminent domain not because it sounds cool. But because it generates far less suffering/underdevelopment than your absolutist moral view:
Its not a moral view the federation violated the Ba'Ku's due process rights which they are entitled to under eminent domain, so really what their doing is actually illegal

Who cares about the BILLIONS who will suffer illness/injury/die just so that a few hundred elitists can keep their immortality?
You do not, apparently.
The needs of the Many doesn't let you break the god damned law.
So, if the baku are given due process, you would agree with the decision of moving them?

Or is your 'due process' argument only a smokescreen, used for its 'respectability'?
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Last edited by Edit_XYZ; April 18 2013 at 07:49 PM.
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Old April 18 2013, 07:42 PM   #93
R. Star
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
I didn't hear anything about a Supreme Court ruling in the movie? I've never even heard anything about a Federation Supreme Court... you're kind of making things up..
In general I'm pointing out that in real life the U.S. Supreme Court can strike down laws passed by Congress to point out that the "if the law makers pass it its legal argument"

I though that was a fair thing to do what with real legal terms were used to justify your side of the argument. Funny how that isn't the case anymore when its pointed out that they actually don't.
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

United Federation of Planets =/= United States of America.
Your argument sure seems to be all over the place. We don't know what sort of checks and balances, if any, the Federation has. For all we know they were ready to do the equivalent of amending the Constitution for this case. We don't know. You're the one bringing up the legality of it when we don't know Federation law beyond what's presented. All the characters seem to be of the opinion that if the Council says so, they make it legal, so that's good enough for me.
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Old April 18 2013, 07:53 PM   #94
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post

You forgot one option: the future member species of the federation bring into the federation the territory they previously had.
I don't recall the Ba'Ku's original homeworld joining the Federation at any point during or before the events of the film.
The baku were NOT on their original homeworld.
They settled a planet belonging to one of the species which will subsequently joined the federation.
That makes the baku tresspassers.
And when the f@#k was that ever stated in the movie NOBODY lives in the f@#king Briar Patch accept the Ba'ku

So - now it's gone from ~'the federaion had no right to remove the baku from the planet' to ~'the federation had no right to remove the bake from their planet without due process'?
You're making progress.
No I'm pointing out how full of crap the eminent dominant argument being bandied about by people who apparently didn't bother to look the term up is and how its probably being used to make their argument look legitimate.

To answer your question, yes, the baku were denied due process - a right the legally had.
Abd any such process would have only one outcome
Considering they were planning to move them without any proceeding I wouldn't be so sure of that, especially since considering you probably didn't even no about the due process thing in eminent dominant until I pointed it out I'm not that confident in your understanding of how legal procession work out.

Here is a hint not very quickly or as clear cut as you think it is.

Hell the fact that this was done in secret apparently already leads me to think the term Political S@#tstorm for the Mass Effect games would apply here as everyone and the grandma is going to be commenting on it with their opinions you know like Ru'afo DIDN'T WANT TO HAPPEN which is why he wanted to MURDER the Enterprise crew.

given the immortality drug (along with billions of other peoples) and the rings are mined for the immortality drug.
According to Dougherty NO they were most certainly not or are you going to reinterpret the phrase about returning them to their proper course of evolution like you do legal terms?

So, if the baku are given due process, you would agree with the decision of moving them?
No I just felt you should no the actually definition of the word that gets thrown around like the people using it (incorrectly I might add) like they even know what it means when they again apparently DO NOT!

Or is your 'due process' argument only a smokescreen, used for its 'respectability'?
No I'm saying how full of crap the its eminent dominant argument is based on the fact that none of you even knows what it means, your just using it to make your argument sound better its no more correct that that stupid asking for a lawyer means you are guilty crap police procedures use.
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Old April 18 2013, 08:04 PM   #95
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

R. Star wrote: View Post
Your argument sure seems to be all over the place. We don't know what sort of checks and balances,
Much like how you were arguing about the real legal systems until I pointed out how they don't actually support your argument like you think they do, then suddenly we don't know how the federation works even after I pointed out their onscreen expansion policy which goes against this issue.

if any, the Federation has. For all we know they were ready to do the equivalent of amending the Constitution for this case.
So the federation just changes their laws in secret basically whenever its convenient? how very noble of them

We don't know. You're the one bringing up the legality of it when we don't know Federation law beyond what's presented.
Which disagrees with you so you use real law without any actual knowledge of how it works until it disagrees with you

I'm sensing a pattern here.

All the characters seem to be of the opinion that if the Council says so, they make it legal, so that's good enough for me.
Until you bitch at them then its not legal apparently besides since when has the admiral character opposing the main heroes ever been right in the entire history of the franchise to that point.
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Old April 18 2013, 08:15 PM   #96
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

I don't recall the Ba'Ku's original homeworld joining the Federation at any point during or before the events of the film.
The baku were NOT on their original homeworld.
They settled a planet belonging to one of the species which will subsequently joined the federation.
That makes the baku tresspassers.
And when the f@#k was that ever stated in the movie NOBODY lives in the f@#king Briar Patch accept the Ba'ku
It's called deduction - based on what was established in the movie (federation teritory) and the federation's territorial policies (how does space become federation territory).
I just explained it - twice over - in some detail. Do try to keep up.

The baku tresspassed on territory belonging to a future federation member species.
Guess what? That makes them tresspassers, regardless of whether the star system was inhabited or not.

No I'm pointing out how full of crap the eminent dominant argument being bandied about by people who apparently didn't bother to look the term up is and how its probably being used to make their argument look legitimate.
And all you've managed to point out is how full of crap your argument is; how little you bothered to research the eminent domain laws.

Hell the fact that this was done in secret apparently already leads me to think the term Political S@#tstorm for the Mass Effect games would apply here as everyone and the grandma is going to be commenting on it with their opinions you know like Ru'afo DIDN'T WANT TO HAPPEN which is why he wanted to MURDER the Enterprise crew.
And again you only manage to point out the weakness of your argument - now resorting to cheap/irrelevant tricks such as ~'the baku won't be moved out because random person x and y won't care how many billions will suffer'?

And about that due trial? Well, who cares what it will establish, yes? You certainly don't.

So - eminent domain laws don't support your argument; your argument was proven some posts ago as morally falimentary.
What's left for you?

Baseless repetition. A, yes - and ad persoams.

So, if the baku are given due process, you would agree with the decision of moving them?
No I just felt you should no the actually definition of the word that gets thrown around like the people using it (incorrectly I might add) like they even know what it means when they again apparently DO NOT![...]
And again, you unintentionally draw attention to your own ignorance of eminent domain legislation.

Seriously. Look it up - you are embarassing yourself.
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Old April 18 2013, 08:20 PM   #97
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

Much like how you were arguing about the real legal systems until I pointed out how they don't actually support your argument like you think they do, then suddenly we don't know how the federation works even after I pointed out their onscreen expansion policy which goes against this issue.
Unless you're just putting words in my mouth, point out where I argued any real legal systems? You're the one bringing up legality or just don't seem to know the difference between legality and morality.


So the federation just changes their laws in secret basically whenever its convenient? how very noble of them
As for changing laws when convenient? It happens all the time. Who said anything about it being noble? Again if you want to argue the morality of it, do that. Stop bringing up the legality of it.



Which disagrees with you so you use real law without any actual knowledge of how it works until it disagrees with you

I'm sensing a pattern here.
Again.. where did I bring up any real law? Stop putting words in my mouth or bother to read who's posting what if you want to be taken seriously. The only pattern I'm sensing here is you're either not paying attention or just seeing what you want to see to fit your vague argument whatever it may be.


Until you bitch at them then its not legal apparently besides since when has the admiral character opposing the main heroes ever been right in the entire history of the franchise to that point.
Apparently. That's how the script roles. It was poorly written and everything just ends happily... because they say so. Certainly not for any tangible reason beyond that.
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Old April 18 2013, 08:22 PM   #98
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

the "no due process" argument is of course a smoke screen. The reason they didn't approach them initially is because it was thought the Baku were primitives, and pre-space contact.

Once it was clear they weren't, it was only because of poor writing that negotiations for compensation and removal didn't begin. ( and because they wanted to avoid a "baku say no" scenario.)
And those arguing against removal aren't really going to change positions if the Federation had approached the Baku and been blunt about evoking eminent domain.
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Old April 18 2013, 08:46 PM   #99
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

sonak wrote: View Post
the "no due process" argument is of course a smoke screen. The reason they didn't approach them initially is because it was thought the Baku were primitives, and pre-space contact.

Once it was clear they weren't, it was only because of poor writing that negotiations for compensation and removal didn't begin. ( and because they wanted to avoid a "baku say no" scenario.)
And those arguing against removal aren't really going to change positions if the Federation had approached the Baku and been blunt about evoking eminent domain.
Honestly thinking about it, none of this doesn't even matters becuase the only people whose opinion on Trek actually will even matter in to how its fictional governments doing anything and if its right or not have pretty much said it was wrong hell the books even put the Section 31 kiss of death on it so pretty much all we're ever doing in this thing is saying the same things over and over again.

Besides it doesn't matter who gets affects in this universe or even the federations' supposed wishes their all just window dressing for a movie about Picard and his crew so really his position in the damned film is the only one the matters really, so can we stop arguing about a crappy movie in a thread started by a banned troll that probably doesn't even believe anything he posted?

Oh and one more thing

sonak wrote: View Post
The reason they didn't approach them initially is because it was thought the Baku were primitives, and pre-space contact.
Wow so the same federation that follows the strictest version of the Prime Directive that mean they won't even save billions of people from death because their pre-warp will kick a pre-warp culture off their planet to exploit it. Weird I would have expected Dougherty to get a 3 hour lecture on the prime directive from Picard before he was torched to death to appease the mighty cosmic force's whose sacred plan for the universe he violated that Riker came up with to justify letting another pre-warp culture die. Yes he actually used that argument.

Last edited by Hartzilla2007; April 18 2013 at 09:01 PM.
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Old April 18 2013, 09:14 PM   #100
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Wow so the same federation that follows the strictest version of the Prime Directive that mean they won't even save billions of people from death because their pre-warp will kick a pre-warp culture off their planet to exploit it. Weird I would have expected Dougherty to get a 3 hour lecture on the prime directive from Picard before he was torched to death to appease the mighty cosmic force's whose sacred plan for the universe he violated that Riker came up with to justify letting another pre-warp culture die. Yes he actually used that argument.
The 'Homeward' interpretation of the prime directive you describe here is also morally falimentary.
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Old April 18 2013, 09:20 PM   #101
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Wow so the same federation that follows the strictest version of the Prime Directive that mean they won't even save billions of people from death because their pre-warp will kick a pre-warp culture off their planet to exploit it. Weird I would have expected Dougherty to get a 3 hour lecture on the prime directive from Picard before he was torched to death to appease the mighty cosmic force's whose sacred plan for the universe he violated that Riker came up with to justify letting another pre-warp culture die. Yes he actually used that argument.
The 'Homeward' interpretation of the prime directive you describe here is also morally falimentary.
Yeah, but if their going to be doing morally questionable things can they at least do so consistently otherwise it just gets confusing.
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Old April 18 2013, 09:57 PM   #102
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

I have to say that Bender from Futurama best sums up my feelings towards the Ba'ku:

Godfellas wrote:
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Does it suck for the Ba'ku? Yes. But instead of expelling the S'ona in the first place they maybe could have come up with a way to integrate their need for exploration into their society. Maybe be a little more forward looking so they could defend their paradise when someone inevitably stumbled upon it.
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Old April 18 2013, 10:07 PM   #103
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

BillJ wrote: View Post
I have to say that Bender from Futurama best sums up my feelings towards the Ba'ku:

Godfellas wrote:
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Does it suck for the Ba'ku? Yes. But instead of expelling the S'ona in the first place they maybe could have come up with a way to integrate their need for exploration into their society. Maybe be a little more forward looking so they could defend their paradise when someone inevitably stumbled upon it.
Except we don't really know much about how the split happened except that the Son'a tried to take over they and then they were exiled.

Heck even the how could the Son'a lose to luddites argument only works if you believe that the Son'a who were apart of said luddite village some how got access to advanced technology that their parents who ran the colony didn't like having around.
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Old April 18 2013, 10:11 PM   #104
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

The reason no one ever bothered to ask the Baku to move is quite simple. If they say yes, movie's over. If they say no, they look like first class jerks by putting their immortality above the welfare of billions. As it is, they're not very sympathetic to start with. Pretty much everyone involved in this movie makes an ass of themselves in one way or another. Excellent writing.
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Old April 18 2013, 10:12 PM   #105
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

R. Star wrote: View Post
Excellent writing.
It's a real shame that Insurrection was Michael Piller's Trek swan-song.
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