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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old April 18 2013, 01:32 PM   #76
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

T'Girl wrote: View Post
You keep bringing up how the Baku arrived on the planet prior to the formation of the Federation, but you fail to explain how this means the the planet can't be a part of the Federation.
I would have though the stuff from the shows and at the beginning of the this freaking movie that showed how a planet goes about becoming part of the federation would have clued you in on that.

But since it didn't, The three ways shown were 1) the federation colonizes an empty planet, and 2) A planet that people already live on has to go through a lengthy application process to join, 3) The Federation Council likely with the cooperation of the locals (seeing as the one time this was shown the locals had a diplomatic meet and greet) can give a planet protectorate status. But basically what it boils down to is they pretty much need consent of the people living on the planet.
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Old April 18 2013, 01:44 PM   #77
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
But basically what it boils down to is they pretty much need consent of the people living on the planet.
I doubt the peoples living in the Louisiana territory were given a choice of whether to follow the laws of the United States when they were acquired from the French.
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Old April 18 2013, 02:05 PM   #78
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

BillJ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
But basically what it boils down to is they pretty much need consent of the people living on the planet.
I doubt the peoples living in the Louisiana territory were given a choice of whether to follow the laws of the United States when they were acquired from the French.
United Federation of Planets =/= United States of America.
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Old April 18 2013, 03:30 PM   #79
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
You keep bringing up how the Baku arrived on the planet prior to the formation of the Federation, but you fail to explain how this means the the planet can't be a part of the Federation.
I would have though the stuff from the shows and at the beginning of the this freaking movie that showed how a planet goes about becoming part of the federation would have clued you in on that.

But since it didn't, The three ways shown were 1) the federation colonizes an empty planet, and 2) A planet that people already live on has to go through a lengthy application process to join, 3) The Federation Council likely with the cooperation of the locals (seeing as the one time this was shown the locals had a diplomatic meet and greet) can give a planet protectorate status. But basically what it boils down to is they pretty much need consent of the people living on the planet.
You forgot one option: the future member species of the federation bring into the federation the territory they previously had.

In this case - the planet the baku were settling belonged to a future member of the federation.
All other options you mentioned are excluded - the federation does not claim already inhabited planetary systems.

Which means - the baku are tresspassers.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
But basically what it boils down to is they pretty much need consent of the people living on the planet.
I doubt the peoples living in the Louisiana territory were given a choice of whether to follow the laws of the United States when they were acquired from the French.
United Federation of Planets =/= United States of America.
As it turns out, when it comes to eminent domain, the federation = every liberal democracy on Earth.

BTW, the liberal democracies have eminent domain not because it sounds cool. But because it generates far less suffering/underdevelopment than your absolutist moral view:

Who cares about the BILLIONS who will suffer illness/injury/die just so that a few hundred elitists can keep their immortality?
You do not, apparently.
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Last edited by Edit_XYZ; April 18 2013 at 03:43 PM.
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Old April 18 2013, 04:03 PM   #80
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
You keep bringing up how the Baku arrived on the planet prior to the formation of the Federation, but you fail to explain how this means the the planet can't be a part of the Federation.
I would have though the stuff from the shows and at the beginning of the this freaking movie that showed how a planet goes about becoming part of the federation would have clued you in on that.

But since it didn't, The three ways shown were 1) the federation colonizes an empty planet, and 2) A planet that people already live on has to go through a lengthy application process to join, 3) The Federation Council likely with the cooperation of the locals (seeing as the one time this was shown the locals had a diplomatic meet and greet) can give a planet protectorate status. But basically what it boils down to is they pretty much need consent of the people living on the planet.
You forgot one option: the future member species of the federation bring into the federation the territory they previously had.
I don't recall the Ba'Ku's original homeworld joining the Federation at any point during or before the events of the film.

In this case - the planet the baku were settling belonged to a future member of the federation.
Again I don't recall the Ba'Ku's original homeworld joining the Federation at any point during or before the events of the film.

All other options you mentioned are excluded - the federation does not claim already inhabited planetary systems.
Much like the Ba'ku planet.

Which means - the baku are tresspassers.
Nope, unless their original homeworld joins the Federation then the Federation doesn't own the planet any even then there can be legal troubles depending on if the Ba'ku broke away or not.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

I doubt the peoples living in the Louisiana territory were given a choice of whether to follow the laws of the United States when they were acquired from the French.
United Federation of Planets =/= United States of America.
As it turns out, when it comes to eminent domain, the federation = every liberal democracy on Earth.
Actually its not eminent domain

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...eminent+domain

here is the relevant quote

A variety of property rights are subject to eminent domain, such as air, water, and land rights. The government takes private property through condemnation proceedings. Throughout these proceedings, the property owner has the right of due process.
So explain to me oh expert of the law just how grabbing the Ba'ku in their sleep and dumping them on another planet equates giving them the right of due process?

BTW, the liberal democracies have eminent domain not because it sounds cool. But because it generates far less suffering/underdevelopment than your absolutist moral view:
Its not a moral view the federation violated the Ba'Ku's due process rights which they are entitled to under eminent domain, so really what their doing is actually illegal

Who cares about the BILLIONS who will suffer illness/injury/die just so that a few hundred elitists can keep their immortality?
You do not, apparently.
The needs of the Many doesn't let you break the god damned law.
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Old April 18 2013, 04:45 PM   #81
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

I'd put it this way: The needs of the many do not excuse curtailing the rights of the few.
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Old April 18 2013, 05:24 PM   #82
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
I'd put it this way: The needs of the many do not excuse curtailing the rights of the few.
Especially when its illegal as hell.
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Old April 18 2013, 06:14 PM   #83
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

^I didn't realize you were an expert on Federation law.

Unless we assume Dougherty was lying, and we frankly don't have reason to, The Council approved his actions, at least in the broad sense. Presumably if that occurred then what transpired was legal on some level.
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Old April 18 2013, 06:20 PM   #84
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Yeah I'm fairly certain if the Federation Council signs off on it they can make it legal being they... make the law. Even Picard stopped arguing the legality of it after Dougherty threw the Council card at him and just stuck with the morality of it.
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Old April 18 2013, 06:34 PM   #85
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

DonIago wrote: View Post
^I didn't realize you were an expert on Federation law.
You guys were the ones arguing emanate domain, don't complaint to me when I show you how it actually works.

R. Star wrote: View Post
Yeah I'm fairly certain if the Federation Council signs off on it they can make it legal being they... make the law. Even Picard stopped arguing the legality of it after Dougherty threw the Council card at him and just stuck with the morality of it.
And then they changed their minds at the end after a quick call from Riker, doesn't seem to be a very concrete law, especially since Dougherty was pretty vague. And Picard did not give up on the legality of it thats why he had Riker go bitch at them.

Besides just becuase the government says so is a piss poor excuse that ignores the possibility that they can actually do something illegal.

Thats kind of why there is a process for removing them from office if they do something illegal.
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Old April 18 2013, 06:47 PM   #86
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

And you've never heard of a politician backing down from something that looks bad when they get caught?

You can't say it's illegal... when the people who make the laws sign off on it. Sorry. Immoral sure, you can argue that. There is a difference.
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Old April 18 2013, 06:52 PM   #87
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

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And you've never heard of a politician backing down from something that looks bad when they get caught?
You're not really helping your position here.

You can't say it's illegal... when the people who make the laws sign off on it.
Funny that never stopped the Supreme Court from striking laws down which kind of makes them illegal.
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Old April 18 2013, 06:57 PM   #88
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

I didn't hear anything about a Supreme Court ruling in the movie? I've never even heard anything about a Federation Supreme Court... you're kind of making things up..
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Old April 18 2013, 07:04 PM   #89
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

And then they changed their minds at the end after a quick call from Riker...
They halted it for 'review' (per the movie) for all we know they relocated the Ba'ku afterward anyway.
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Old April 18 2013, 07:18 PM   #90
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

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I didn't hear anything about a Supreme Court ruling in the movie? I've never even heard anything about a Federation Supreme Court... you're kind of making things up..
In general I'm pointing out that in real life the U.S. Supreme Court can strike down laws passed by Congress to point out that the "if the law makers pass it its legal argument"

I though that was a fair thing to do what with real legal terms were used to justify your side of the argument. Funny how that isn't the case anymore when its pointed out that they actually don't.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

And then they changed their minds at the end after a quick call from Riker...
They halted it for 'review' (per the movie) for all we know they relocated the Ba'ku afterward anyway.
The fact that Picard wasn't court-martialed and Geordi still uses ocular implants and that these game changing particles did not seem to be in use added to the fact that the Son'a seemed to be try to reconcile with the Ba'ku and the major proponents of the relocation were dead one of which was murdered by the other one who then died trying to kill everyone tends to support the argument that they didn't.
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