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Old March 26 2013, 01:30 PM   #136
Robert Comsol
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
It could be anything. I took it as a corridor because Kirk,Spock, and McCoy enter through the A frame as if they were coming from the port side. (The camera was in the way.)
What I can see in the screencaps and in the video suggests they were heavily leaning on the port side of the central corridor (okay, no seating banks but probably just wall-mounted folding seats), but they obviously didn't walk in from the port side to perform an L- or 90° turn.

Bob
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Old March 26 2013, 01:42 PM   #137
Robert Comsol
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Mytran wrote: View Post
I'm fairly certain that the actors were able to do that because the A-frame was "wilded" over to where the shuttlebay set was located - there's certainly no way it could fit in Stage 8 with regard to where the A-frames are usually located. Without the usual constraints of the corridor walls, the actors could enter in from anywhere they pleased!

It also shows us which A-frame was used, since the one by the Transporter Room (http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...timehd0537.jpg) has a red alert panel to the left (as you look at it). The one in JTB (http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...abelhd0086.jpg) is more likely the one opposite Engineering, near the Sickbay lab.
I'm not sure which A-frame is the one actually used in "Journey to Babel" (notice the angle of the frame "curtain") but it definitely is not the same A-frame as the one in "The Immunity Syndrome".

Bob

P.S. I still consider this to be one and the same corridor. Maybe the frame curtain is a radiation filter that got exchanged between the two episodes.
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Old March 26 2013, 02:04 PM   #138
blssdwlf
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
It could be anything. I took it as a corridor because Kirk,Spock, and McCoy enter through the A frame as if they were coming from the port side. (The camera was in the way.)
What I can see in the screencaps and in the video suggests they were heavily leaning on the port side of the central corridor (okay, no seating banks but probably just wall-mounted folding seats), but they obviously didn't walk in from the port side to perform an L- or 90° turn.
I don't think it is obvious either way. The camera was in their path if they walked straight to the A frame so they walked in from the right of the camera (or port side) and thus had to make some kind of turn, even if it is subtle, to get around the camera. If you want to think of it as a bank of seats to make your plan symmetrical that's fine as it is your plan.
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Old March 28 2013, 11:12 AM   #139
Robert Comsol
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Here's just a short update of the next steps into the saucer hull (finally, these circular corridors will be definitely palatable...).

I planned to work myself from the inside (sickbay) towards the outside and already ran into some interesting "problems".

Originally, I had thought you could just illustrate the Season One sickbay and add two 120° studio set segments with the Season Two and Three set.

But it's not that easy considering substantial redresses of the sickbay set itself in each of the seasons:

Already in Season One we have the standard "examination room" and the variation in "The Enemy Within" (no diagnostic scanner over the examination bed during the "eyewitness statement" scene!).

And in Season Two we have the examination room without the examination bed ("By Any Other Name") and the unique camera edit in "The Changeling" which suggests McCoy's office to be the door next to the turbo lift at the end of the corridor!

And if we presume the Defiant's doctor's office in "The Tholian Web" (table is on opposite side of room near 'waiting booth') should also be on the Enterprise we have enough interior variations to fill two deck levels (with all the Season One illumination variations of the glass cabinet separating the exam room from the bedroom maybe more...)

Come to think about it, that's actually a rather good thing. In other Trek BBS discussions we noticed that Kirk's babysitting turbo lift travels to sickbay and Deck 5 (e.g. "Amok Time", "Elaan of Troyius") actually suggest sickbay to be on Main Deck 5 despite the general assumption (statement in The Making of Star Trek) that it is on Main Deck 7.

Apparently, an inner sickbay complex that spreads from Deck 5 to Deck 7 could be a golden compromise making everyone happy.

Bob
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Old March 28 2013, 02:48 PM   #140
Mytran
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Whether Sickbay is on Deck 7 or Deck 5 depends on how many decks you plan to include in the saucer overall. It makes sense that the facility be in "the best protected part of the ship" (Kirk, EOT) which would be in the centre of the saucer.

Using FJ's plans of 8' ceilings you can just about squeeze 11 decks into the saucer, making Deck 7 fit this location nicely.

However, we are consistently seeing ceiling heights much higher than that in the show - 9' or even 10' is not uncommon. For that (and allowing for a certain amount of deck thickness) then the centre of the saucer would be around Deck 5.

Incidentally, the Jefferies cutaway also shows Deck 5 in this location (not that it was ever seen onscreen)
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Old March 28 2013, 05:26 PM   #141
Robert Comsol
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

^^ I should have known someone would remind me of the ceiling height issues with the saucer hull.

Thus far, I've tried to confine the visible 10' ceiling height "monsters" to the engineering hull (e.g. WNM long corridor, Charlie's detention cell in "Charlie X").

I consider the B(erth) Deck reference in "Court-Martial" a constructive hint that FJ Main Deck 7 is at least crew quarters Deck 6 (supported by Dr. Daystrom's Deck 6 reference in "The Ultimate Computer").

If I'm not mistaken, the lowest deck reference for the saucer was Deck 9 in "The Man Trap" but we can't entirely ignore Spock's blast damage report in "Errand of Mercy" regarding Decks 10 and 11 (after having witnessed Klingon projectiles hitting the saucer hull in the compatible area).

Add to this I found more sickbay inconsistencies the further I examine the visual information. Apparently, it's not possible we have the wall pedals in the Season Two exam room one week (Chekov in "The Deadly Years") and next week there's a flat screen there ("Obsession").

And the corridor scenes from "The Changeling", "The Deadly Years" and the "Lights of Zetar" (baryonic chamber) also suggest different locations. I'm getting close to a point where I wonder if three decks for the interior sickbay complex are actually sufficient to bring all those different elements together.

Bob
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Old March 29 2013, 12:36 AM   #142
Mytran
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Yeah sorry,but it had to be mentioned - although I now see your desire to fit as much as possible into the Secondary Hull.

Anyway, while I agree that Sickbay did indeed undergo various changes over the years, I don't think they were all quite as drastic as you suggest. To take the example above, Chekov's foot pedals were nowhere near the location of the flat panel:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...earshd0398.jpg

The Obsession scene is actually filmed in McCoy's Office next door, and the flat panel is simply adjacent to door (on one side) and Spock's bed (on the other). This set plan should explain better:


(click for full size)

Incidentally - production-wise, Obsession and Deadly Years were filmed 7 episodes apart - although quite how much relevance that has will depend on how you view the series order!

Season 3 is the worst offender though, IMO. Some directors (Truth...Beauty) seemed determined to present the adjoining Sickbay rooms as completely separate!
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Old March 29 2013, 12:49 AM   #143
Mytran
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
...A-frames...

P.S. I still consider this to be one and the same corridor. Maybe the frame curtain is a radiation filter that got exchanged between the two episodes.
I was going to present a compelling argument on how the 2 corridors are presented very differently and if the episodes are taken on face value they must be different - but it's your thread and your choice, ultimately. And I have a long drive tomorrow so I'll leave it for another time.

I do like the notion of an "airlock" and "safety lobby" for LTBYLB however - it explains away those awful inconsistencies very nicely: Look at that blue floored room - not even double doors!

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Old April 4 2013, 12:14 AM   #144
Robert Comsol
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Mytran wrote: View Post
The Obsession scene is actually filmed in McCoy's Office next door, and the flat panel is simply adjacent to door (on one side) and Spock's bed (on the other). This set plan should explain better:


(click for full size)
Just got back from the holidays (had the chance to embark on a 1960's Soviet Juliett-Class sub).

You are right, the flat panel is on the wall where you put it (I do not remember having really seen during TOS).

But in many shots taken in McCoy's office we do see the exam room to the right through the door frame and I wonder, if this flat panel wall shouldn't usually be in the way?

Mytran wrote: View Post
Season 3 is the worst offender though, IMO. Some directors (Truth...Beauty) seemed determined to present the adjoining Sickbay rooms as completely separate!
You make it sound like you feel it's a bad thing.

The more I think about it, I wonder if the Enterprise should have medical space that's not only limited to the crew. The ship is often on patrol duty and provides medical assistance to colonies and outposts, and it has at least 4 "astro-medicine medical wards".

I'm currently taking notes of all the sickbay variations and probably present a "sickbay studio set sheet" with the variations and corridors presented during TOS to illustrate the issue (I will need to correct the studio set piece you featured, McCoy's office wall shelves aren't nearly as sunk-in as the "official" studio set plan sugests).

Bob
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Old April 4 2013, 01:45 PM   #145
Mytran
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

The time in the sub must have been fun - after all, what (structurally) are Starships if not "subs in space"?

Anyway, back to the thread- the shelves do indeed appear shallower, I hadn't noticed that! Sometimes the filming angle can play tricks but in this case it's a pretty clear departure from the plans. I would suspect that the change was made because the original design would leave next to no space for stagehands to move between the walls. McCoy's shelves differ somewhat in appearance too - maybe someone on the production team just happened to have a suitable set hanging around they used them instead?
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Old April 4 2013, 02:22 PM   #146
Robert Comsol
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Mytran wrote: View Post
I would suspect that the change was made because the original design would leave next to no space for stagehands to move between the walls.
Yes, I believe the exam table wall was usually closer to the shelf section of McCoy's office which could also explain why we didn't see more of that wall with the flat panel from the point of view in McCoy's office.

On the other hand, "Mirror, Mirror" suggests that the arrangement here was very close to the original plans (with the exception of the white table that was possibly made of paper so the stuntmen wouldn't get hurt. A few scenes later when Sulu marches in we do have a sturdy black table there ).

Bob
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Old April 18 2013, 03:54 PM   #147
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Mytran wrote: View Post
Here you go!
Coming in late to this thread, but it does demonstrate exactly my problem with modern TOS revisionists. A ring corridor in the secondary hull! This automatically is one reason why FJ's blueprints are more plausible: because he exercised what's called common sense and plausibility. He was also an aerospace draftsman.

I mean, if you take this Deck 14 line of thought one step further you'd might as well accept the turbo shaft scene in ST V and rebuild the entire Enterprise with 79 decks, and Deck 1 being at the very bottom of the secondary hull.

Ring corridors belong in the primary hull. Period. They are shaped that way for a reason.
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Old April 18 2013, 04:26 PM   #148
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post

Coming in late to this thread, but it does demonstrate exactly my problem with modern TOS revisionists. A ring corridor in the secondary hull! This automatically is one reason why FJ's blueprints are more plausible: because he exercised what's called common sense and plausibility. He was also an aerospace draftsman.

I mean, if you take this Deck 14 line of thought one step further you'd might as well accept the turbo shaft scene in ST V and rebuild the entire Enterprise with 79 decks, and Deck 1 being at the very bottom of the secondary hull.

Ring corridors belong in the primary hull. Period. They are shaped that way for a reason.
It's hardly revisionism, Lenny. TOS used curved corridors for scenes that should have been in the secondary hull. You might want to go back and read through the discussions in this thread -- there are some pretty good reasons for the decisions made.
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Old April 19 2013, 02:15 AM   #149
blssdwlf
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

That and it is Robert Comsol's interpretation of what he sees about the original Enterprise in his own topic. It is a little radical, but rather interesting. Please continue on Bob.
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Old April 19 2013, 03:53 PM   #150
Albertese
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
That and it is Robert Comsol's interpretation of what he sees about the original Enterprise in his own topic. It is a little radical, but rather interesting. Please continue on Bob.
Hear, hear! I don't agree with all of his assumptions, but it's certainly an interesting and thought provoking vision of the TOS E! In fact, I daresay that this is one of two or three threads I most look forward to on this board.

Keep it up!

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