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Enterprise The final frontier has a new beginning in this forum!

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Old April 16 2013, 02:22 AM   #16
teacake
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Re: Ryva Takes On Enterprise (Again)

Tuvok is a good man but smug when it comes to Neelix, which at one point he admits to. The superiority is always going to be there if the single thing you value the most in life is seemingly disregarded by species perfectly capable of employing it.

I think the softening is in part because until we got Tuvok we had no new regular Vulcan characters. Enterprise did a great job giving us so many more Vulcans.
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Old April 16 2013, 08:35 AM   #17
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Re: Ryva Takes On Enterprise (Again)

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
...There was a "softening" of the Vulcans, but it was not between ENT and TOS... it was between TOS and TNG. Somehow by the 24th century they were reduced to quiet, introverted background characters with only a hint of their previous smugness.
Until DS9. Those Vulcans in Holosuite were smugger than Capt Smug of the USS Smug.
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Old April 16 2013, 08:56 AM   #18
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Re: Ryva Takes On Enterprise (Again)

Oh them..

SO TRUE.

Yeah, Vulcans have always been smug, we just saw them in bulk with ENT.
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Old April 16 2013, 09:24 AM   #19
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Re: Ryva Takes On Enterprise (Again)

I've been watching "Fusion" preparing for a review. Three completely different Vulcans there, and one looks like he enjoys desserts.
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Old April 16 2013, 10:12 AM   #20
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Re: Ryva Takes On Enterprise (Again)

As Surak is my witness I'll never eat plomeek soup again!
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Old April 18 2013, 04:34 AM   #21
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Re: Ryva Takes On Enterprise (Again)

lurok wrote: View Post
Until DS9. Those Vulcans in Holosuite were smugger than Capt Smug of the USS Smug.
Also they cheat at baseball.

But anyway.

Strange New World:

So I don't remember Archer being so... dumb. He keeps making these amateur mistakes that put his crew in jeopardy and reinforce the Vulcans' opinion that humans are idiots. Not only did he ignore T'Pol's advice (and common sense) when he didn't take scans of the planet or even check the weather before sending a team to the surface, but he brought his frigging dog!? Who does that? I realize space exploration is a new concept at this point, but these are mistakes resulting from incompetence, not inexperience. Protocols are there for the safety of the crew. It seems like a no-brainer.

Anyway, I liked the rest of the episode. I thought it was strange that they should do a "Main Characters Go Crazy and Act Unlike Themselves" episode so early in the series, when we really don't even know the characters that well to begin with. But then, TNG did the same thing with "The Naked Now". And that was only their second episode.

There were a few good character moments. Mayweather got to tell a ghost story. (Yay?) Trip obviously has some deep-seated hostility toward Vulcans. And T'Pol found out just how dangerous those irrational humans can be. And I liked that they couldn't land the shuttle because of the storm. That was a nice touch of realism.

Without any spoilers, could you guys tell me something? Am I ever going to like Archer?
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Old April 18 2013, 04:42 AM   #22
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Re: Ryva Takes On Enterprise (Again)

Ryva Brall wrote: View Post

Strange New World:

So I don't remember Archer being so... dumb. He keeps making these amateur mistakes that put his crew in jeopardy and reinforce the Vulcans' opinion that humans are idiots. Not only did he ignore T'Pol's advice (and common sense) when he didn't take scans of the planet or even check the weather before sending a team to the surface, but he brought his frigging dog!? Who does that? I realize space exploration is a new concept at this point, but these are mistakes resulting from incompetence, not inexperience.
See the bolded part I have a problem with. In that vast library of old movies and crap that Trip keeps wanting to spend an evening eating popcorn with was there NO science fiction? Don't they at least have a vague set of fictional protocols in their head for new situations because mankind has been musing on such possibilities for centuries?

Without any spoilers, could you guys tell me something? Am I ever going to like Archer?
Depends. Are you won over by men once they take their shirts off?
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Old April 18 2013, 04:49 AM   #23
Ryva Brall
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Re: Ryva Takes On Enterprise (Again)

teacake wrote: View Post
See the bolded part I have a problem with. In that vast library of old movies and crap that Trip keeps wanting to spend an evening eating popcorn with was there NO science fiction? Don't they at least have a vague set of fictional protocols in their head for new situations because mankind has been musing on such possibilities for centuries?
I was kind of trying to give humans the benefit of the doubt. But after I typed it, I realized, it really isn't a new concept. After all, Mayweather grew up on space freighters. Humans have been in space long enough at this point to know better.

teacake wrote: View Post
Depends. Are you won over by men once they take their shirts off?
Meh. I'm more attracted to grey matter than muscle mass.
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Old April 18 2013, 04:58 AM   #24
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Re: Ryva Takes On Enterprise (Again)

Actually I am completely meh about Archer with his shirt off.

There are some touching humanizing episodes, some crisis driven character development and also a continual improvement of chemistry between the crew which all lift Archer from the embarrassment of his putz-ness in season 1. But I doubt he'll ever be someone you adore. I don't adore him, but I'm used to him and everything does improve.
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Old April 18 2013, 05:05 AM   #25
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Re: Ryva Takes On Enterprise (Again)

I very much liked this Archer analysis by a past poster. It helped my get over my Archer antipathies, now I just poke at him for fun. Contains no spoilers:

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post

I've seen two analyses of Archer that I thought were good descriptions of him....

I.) Kirk is the "action hero." He's the one who gets in fights and has a lot of physicality. Picard is the "thinking hero." He's the one who uses his mind to win at any challenge. Sisko is the "emotional hero." He's the kind of person who will let his emotions control him, for better or worse. Janeway is the "anti-hero." She's the kind of person who is willing to break the rules and do some very, very questionable things, but we forgive her anyway because we *almost* always agree with her decisions. Archer is the "tragic hero." He's a man who is unable to rise to the challenges he faces, try as he might and has to rely on others to help him (notably Trip and T'Pol, but to a lesser extent the rest of his crew.)

II.) He's sort of like the American Founding Fathers. Let's take probably the best known Founding Father for comparison - George Washington. Washington is today revered as the man who won the American Revolution. However, if you look at the actual historical facts, he wasn't that much of a military commander. His first military command, in the British Army, was such a resounding failure that it helped start the French and Indian War. During the Revolution, he only won three battles over the course of years and years (one of which he only won because of the element of surprise and another only because the French navy helped him tremendously). He was constantly outmatched, outperformed and outmaneuvered. Yet, his legend has grown ever since the end of the Revolution.

That's similar to what they were trying to do with Archer, in my opinion. They wanted to show that he was a Founding Father of the Federation, but that he wasn't a god among men - he was flawed, deeply, as both a military commander and as a diplomat. That makes a lot of sense to me and I greatly appreciate it. After all, I greatly respect many of the American Founding Fathers, even though they were also deeply flawed men - most of the ones I admire owned slaves, for crying out loud!
From this old thread.
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Old April 18 2013, 05:07 AM   #26
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Re: Ryva Takes On Enterprise (Again)

That's good to know. I was hoping it would turn out to be just a Season 1 thing.

And I can't forget that I was pretty meh about almost all the characters on DS9 during most of the first season. But they all grew on me. Maybe I'll change my mind about Archer. It's not impossible.
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Old April 18 2013, 06:01 AM   #27
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Re: Ryva Takes On Enterprise (Again)

Ryva Brall wrote: View Post
. . . But then, TNG did the same thing with "The Naked Now". And that was only their second episode.
At least TOS waited until episode 5 or 6 to do "The Naked Time", but that still felt too early to me.
Without any spoilers, could you guys tell me something? Am I ever going to like Archer?
I'm about halfway through the first season on a rewatch. My first impressions of Archer 12 years ago were not favorable. But after watching these early episodes again several times a day, I'm starting to see what they might have been doing. He toughens up a little, but I still don't think he's there by the season ender.
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Old April 18 2013, 07:16 AM   #28
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Re: Ryva Takes On Enterprise (Again)

I don't want him to toughen up, I want him to smarten up.
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Old April 18 2013, 08:53 AM   #29
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Re: Ryva Takes On Enterprise (Again)

Well, that too. It took me a while to figure out some of those beating up scenes through the season.
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Old April 18 2013, 09:15 AM   #30
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Re: Ryva Takes On Enterprise (Again)

Well Archer ain't the brain of the series like previous captains Picard or Sisko ... So if you expect to see him "brain up" than you will be let down. But he makes a pretty good action captain, so if you like action captains like let's say Kirk, I think you will be fine with him.
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