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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old April 18 2013, 02:46 AM   #76
DCR
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

I don't like the 725m size, but if that's what they say it is, that's how big it is.

I will say that I don't like the design, particularly the secondary hull. The saucer looks too far back, cramped against the nacelles, and the cutaway on the lower part of the secondary comes way too far forward. It looks unbalanced, with too much visual weight on the front of the secondary hull rather than the saucer.

As for the "Dreadnaught," it looks impressive - though I do wish JJ had thrown in that third nacelle as a call-out to those of us who cut our teeth on Franz Joseph.
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Old April 18 2013, 03:04 AM   #77
saddestmoon
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

Wow! This new Dreadnaught 'beastie' of a starship looks awesome!!!!

I still prefer the NuPrise over it, in terms of design - but it looks suitably menacing for an adversary ship.

That shot against the backdrop of nebula space is awe-inspiring.

Bring on the movie!!!!

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Old April 18 2013, 04:22 AM   #78
M'Sharak
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

DCR wrote: View Post
I don't like the 725m size, but if that's what they say it is, that's how big it is.

I will say that I don't like the design, particularly the secondary hull. The saucer looks too far back, cramped against the nacelles, and the cutaway on the lower part of the secondary comes way too far forward. It looks unbalanced, with too much visual weight on the front of the secondary hull rather than the saucer.
Are people really still reciting the Catalog of Stylistic Complaints rather than simply saying that they'd rather it looked exactly like the Original Series Enterprise or the TMP Refit? Because none of those details are "wrong" by any other yardstick.
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Old April 18 2013, 04:47 AM   #79
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
Are people really still reciting the Catalog of Stylistic Complaints™ rather than simply saying that they'd rather it looked exactly like the Original Series Enterprise or the TMP Refit? Because none of those details are "wrong" by any other yardstick.
I have zero stylistic complaints -- I like the design, and I think it's very true to the TOS/TMP refit. What I don't like is the sudden shift in scale that happens every scene. I read an interview where an ILM animator said that they scaled the ship to "whatever looked good." 725m 1200m, 30m, whatever fits in the frame.

Look, I teach college science to kids who don't have any concept about the scale of the metric system. They think a ball dropped from a table to the floor will end up with a speed of 1000 m/s. Why should I expect some animator who went to film school to understand the scale any more? They aren't engineers or architects -- they focus on aesthetics. So if something looks better being three times the size it really is, then it becomes three times the size.

The exterior of the nu-E is a carbon copy of the exterior of the TMP-E. Ergo, it is the same size. If they really wanted to scale it up, they should have made the effort to do more than resize a JPG by 200%. Grade: FAIL.

Last edited by WarpFactorZ; April 18 2013 at 04:57 AM.
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Old April 18 2013, 04:55 AM   #80
DCR
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
DCR wrote: View Post
I don't like the 725m size, but if that's what they say it is, that's how big it is.

I will say that I don't like the design, particularly the secondary hull. The saucer looks too far back, cramped against the nacelles, and the cutaway on the lower part of the secondary comes way too far forward. It looks unbalanced, with too much visual weight on the front of the secondary hull rather than the saucer.
Are people really still reciting the Catalog of Stylistic Complaints rather than simply saying that they'd rather it looked exactly like the Original Series Enterprise or the TMP Refit? Because none of those details are "wrong" by any other yardstick.
They don't have to be "wrong" for me not to like them; nor would the design have to mimic one of the previous ones in all details for me to like it.
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Old April 18 2013, 06:58 AM   #81
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

Flake wrote: View Post
If they say over Warp 10 in the cinema my brain will explode for a moment
Plenty of TOS instances of Warp 10 and above:

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Warp...ltiwarp_speeds
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Old April 18 2013, 08:02 AM   #82
starfox
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

The new ship does resemble the Sovereign class, but it at least corrects the Sovereign's fundamental design flaw (the saucer on the new ship isn't in the way of the deflector). The only detail that looks bad is the close proximity of the nacelles and the saucer.

And it's not butt-ugly like the Abramsprise, so I'm content with it.
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Old April 18 2013, 08:15 AM   #83
calamity_si
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

starfox wrote: View Post
The new ship does resemble the Sovereign class, but it at least corrects the Sovereign's fundamental design flaw (the saucer on the new ship isn't in the way of the deflector). The only detail that looks bad is the close proximity of the nacelles and the saucer.

And it's not butt-ugly like the Abramsprise, so I'm content with it.
Yeah I'll second that. Can't wait to see her from some more angles!
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Old April 18 2013, 10:06 AM   #84
Oso Blanco
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

I like the design of the Dreadnought ship, but making it so big is a little lame. I would have liked her to be a powerful warship the same size as the Enterprise or even a bit smaller. Let's hope the movie will not look as cartoonish as that screencap where the two ships are facing each other. Looks like toys on a string!
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Old April 18 2013, 10:57 AM   #85
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

WarpFactorZ,

Ships having a similar configuration doesn't translate into them having the same size. Look at the Coast Guard cutters. They have one basic configuration, but have varying sizes from 29 to 45 meters.

Another problem with your hypothesis is that the hanger deck of the refit Enterprise wasn't greatly increased. The ship could accommodate at best two shuttles side-by-side, port to starboard, or vice versa. This was true before the refit, and this was true after the refit. Additional shuttles were stored one deck down, according to a painting of John Eaves. In the new ship, there were two decks of shuttles on one side, and two decks of shuttles on the other side. These shuttles, due to the nature of the design of the bay, were side-by-side, stern to bow, or vice versa. The design of the bay required for a shuttle to leave its allotted space by moving forward, into the direction of the opposite side, then turning to the stern for launch.

For me, I find it telling that the modern military navies of the world tended to avoid having large ships. The rare exceptions were the aircraft carriers. I think this might be attributable to evolutions in ship design and lessons learned from World War II when large ships proved to be the most susceptible to being attacked and destroyed by smaller ships and their auxiliaries, i.e. airplanes. On the other hand, the civilian navies tended towards larger ships. These ships were used for the transporting of people and cargo.
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Old April 18 2013, 04:39 PM   #86
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

throwback wrote: View Post
WarpFactorZ,

Ships having a similar configuration doesn't translate into them having the same size. Look at the Coast Guard cutters. They have one basic configuration, but have varying sizes from 29 to 45 meters.
Well, the ship analogy breaks down quickly. Pretty much ALL sea-faring vessels look the same because they operate on water (it's the most efficient design for buoyancy and propulsion). So, whether it's a dingy or a supertanker, it's the same structure.

What does change between small ships and big ships is the number of windows: those with twice as many decks have twice as many windows. The TMP-E and nu-E, however, have the same number of windows in identical placements. It was the error on the part of the animators and set designers that caused the "bigger ship" ruckus. They went for what "looks cool," instead of what would realistically fit in the space provided.

Of course, this has been a problem with Trek forever. So, until they actually mention the size of the ship on screen, we can all be happy to believe what we want.
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Old April 18 2013, 04:54 PM   #87
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

The 'what looks cool vs what works' issue is pretty commonplace in the CG era. Draco in DRAGONHEAT was designed so he looked good on the ground, but had to be redesigned to look good in the air.Basicaly there was an interpenetration problem with the anatomy ... I think the story is that the wings would have torn off the body unless they fudged the engineering.

To be fair, I think the same thing happened on occasion pre-CG. DRAGONSLAYER's dragon featured more than one model, and I believe that too related to wing issues.

I think there is a serious advantage to having a design and then being forced to 'obey' those limitations, and that is it keeps down the 'blue sky' improvements that seem to be inflicted on designs. (even for their novel THE MOTE IN GOD'S EYE, Niven & Pournelle decided to lock their ship to the 'Leif Ericson' model kit then available, and then imagine around that design limitation.) Since CG has essentially replaced traditional VFX work, that notion has gone out the porthole.

I don't think even physical models built for reference and scanning are all that prevalent anymore, so all the basic tenants of observing an object and the fall of light upon it as a basis for cinematographic representation are lost; you're only dealing with representations of same. ILM's way of duplicating the presence of real lights in the CGscape is a big step toward bridging this gap, but you still have to have the physical representation for them to reference; with whole-cloth CG, you don't have that essential live or physical aspect to source from, and that's why you continue to get the credibility issues that Dennis Muren has sounded off about for years. http://www.movies.com/movie-news/spe...-anymore/11843
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Old April 18 2013, 05:47 PM   #88
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
What does change between small ships and big ships is the number of windows: those with twice as many decks have twice as many windows. The TMP-E and nu-E, however, have the same number of windows in identical placements.
But let's compare the sizes of those windows, shall we?

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Old April 18 2013, 06:48 PM   #89
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

King Daniel wrote: View Post
WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
What does change between small ships and big ships is the number of windows: those with twice as many decks have twice as many windows. The TMP-E and nu-E, however, have the same number of windows in identical placements.
But let's compare the sizes of those windows, shall we?

Come on. Those are in two very different locations. Do we have a shot of a window somewhere along the saucer rim of the nu-Enterprise?
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Old April 18 2013, 07:32 PM   #90
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

They're the same size as the one on the bridge.
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