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Old April 16 2013, 10:50 PM   #376
teya
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

BillJ wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

Let me know when you're put in that situation.
I was.

I'm the widow of someone who died while on a transplant list.

Never would it have occured to me that it would be justifiable to kill someone else to get him a new kidney.

That is immoral.

So, yeah, bullshit on your argument.
One, I'm sorry for your loss.

While I disagree with your statements I'll let it go at that.
Thanks, but I'm not sure what statements you're disagreeing with...

That I never entertained the idea of killing someone to save him? Well, I didn't.

That it's immoral to kill someone else to save someone you love? Well, it is.
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Old April 16 2013, 10:53 PM   #377
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

JanewayRulz! wrote: View Post
Speaking from the perspective of what makes an interesting episode... the writers wouldn't have wanted to make the decision more palatable. That's the point.

Janeway did kill Tuvix.

That should never be easy.

Janeway certainly doesn't think so, as she leaves sickbay with a look of resignation / muted (?) horror on her face.
Nailed it.

That's the thing in the end: while some folks are passionately arguing that Janeway did the right, moral thing, that there is no reason to question her actions, I think Kate played it beautifully at the end.

Janeway knew that what she'd done was, at best, questionable. But she did it, took the responsibility, and she's the one who will live with it.

That brief pause and the look on her face outside sickbay spoke volumes.
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Old April 16 2013, 11:08 PM   #378
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Hartzilla2007 wrote:

That wasn't stasis that was them trying to reintegrate them when they couldn't stop the beaming process or reverse it and you noticed they didn't try to feed what materialized on earth back through the transporter to get Sonak and the other person back.

Putting someone is stasis is sticking them in the pattern buffer until you re-materialize them.
If people are in a sort of stasis during transport, then yes, they were in stasis - they had dematerialized but had not yet rematerialized. Multple buffers are built into transporters and everyone who sets foot in a transporter is recorded. We've seen captains retrieve dna patterns from these records time and time again.

It's hardly a point in favor of your argument that the bodies weren't used to reconstruct living people. You're forgetting the alien plant that made Tuvix possible. All transporter accidents are a little different and there have been many sci-fi elements involved. What doesn't seem to change is the crew's willingness to do everything possible to retrieve their lost crewmate. They assume that transporter accidents are reversible, barring clear evidence of a fatality.

The crew acts as though Tuvok and Neelix are still alive waiting to be rescued. As the viewer, I'm going to take their word for it, especially as it matches the way transporter accidents have been treated treated throughout Trek. There's just no reason to jump to the conclusion that they're dead when the script doesn't support it.
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Old April 16 2013, 11:35 PM   #379
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Just because she wielded the knife, that doesn't mean that she took responsibility.

The reset button on Voyager meant that no one took responsibility for anything.

What about Mulchaey? The genetic doner for the 29th century Borg Drone?

That "THING" was either his son, his brother or himself depending on how you want to look at it... And there IT was walking around with his face becoming the most beloved of all to the entire crew and the fresh meat hot blonde.

There can only be one and this time it ain't One.

Mulchaey danced on that poor boys grave and he must have been bitter that One was allowed to build a first class life on Voyager when he's locked up in a closet somewhere ignored.

Given time to fester Mulchaey would have killed One to get One life that should have been his if he was "lucky" enough to have been Borg, but given Ones death, the noble sacrifice that saved everyone, that dedicated and educated Star Fleet officer will be seen as the inferior manifest of the same DNA which can never live up to the legacy of some transporter accident and he might as well kill himself because whenever any other bugger looks at his face they don't see him, they just see some freak who stole his identity.

Woman would probably sleep with him if they're allowed to call him One.

The poor bastard is just a celebrity impersonator now and his work shifts are always turned up side down so that he is never allowed to spend any duty shift sharing air with Seven of Nine because she can't stand the heart ache.

So Mulchaey has to go back in time or widget some Borg tech to bring One back to life so that One can live long enough to cock it all up with a nonplussing supplemental appendix... You know, like how in a better universe the last two hours of lord of the Rings should have been cut.

...

One of Janeways arguments was that Tuvok and Neelix had too many friends and family. If it was just the vampire like emotional needs of servicing greedy Friends and family... Why not go back in time and harvest another set? If time splits rather than collapses, she'll be fine but it's not like that spacial scission isn't just a month back that they could have made two Tuvixes afterwhich they could draw straws to see which one one Janeway was allowed to kill.

Of course then Tuvix would still be scratching at Kes' door even as Neelix is on the other side making love to the object of their unified affection.

If Tuvix kept prowling and stalking there's no way that Kes would have felt secure on Voyager enough to break up with Neelix... She could outright leave the ship, but that would be letting him win.
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Old April 17 2013, 12:20 AM   #380
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

spot_loves_data wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote:

That wasn't stasis that was them trying to reintegrate them when they couldn't stop the beaming process or reverse it and you noticed they didn't try to feed what materialized on earth back through the transporter to get Sonak and the other person back.

Putting someone is stasis is sticking them in the pattern buffer until you re-materialize them.
If people are in a sort of stasis during transport, then yes, they were in stasis -
Well according to the episode already mention where Barclay was aware during transport no they are not.

they had dematerialized but had not yet rematerialized. Multple buffers are built into transporters and everyone who sets foot in a transporter is recorded.

When was that ever said? Hell if a person is recorded why not materialize a new one every time they die?

We've seen captains retrieve dna patterns from these records time and time again.
DNA does not a whole person make.

It's hardly a point in favor of your argument that the bodies weren't used to reconstruct living people. You're forgetting the alien plant that made Tuvix possible.
Which has f@#k all to do with what your talking about
All transporter accidents are a little different and there have been many sci-fi elements involved. What doesn't seem to change is the crew's willingness to do everything possible to retrieve their lost crewmate.
While they are still re-materializing.

They assume that transporter accidents are reversible, barring clear evidence of a fatality.
They are not reversing anything they haven't finished beaming them yet. Until they either lose the pattern or something materializes on the pad or other destination they haven't finished the process.

The crew acts as though Tuvok and Neelix are still alive waiting to be rescued.
Or so they assume, stuff onscreen about transporters tends to disagree with them.

As the viewer, I'm going to take their word for it,
And I'm not since it sounds like just being optimistic about a situation they don't know squat about. Hell for all we know the separation could have left a dead Tuvok and a dead Neelix or puddles of organic goo.

especially as it matches the way transporter accidents have been treated treated throughout Trek.
No not really, Tuvix materialized on the pad thus the transporter process is finished as in done, completed, no longer in process. you know the point you said they stopped trying at.

There's just no reason to jump to the conclusion that they're dead when the script doesn't support it.
They aren't there, they are no long a cloud of energy with the hope of being reassembled. So basically they don't exist any more. let me repeat that THEY HAVE CEASED TO EXIST. So how is it jumping to conclusions to believe that that something that no longer exists as an entity is no longer alive?
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Old April 17 2013, 12:29 AM   #381
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
They aren't there, they are no long a cloud of energy with the hope of being reassembled. So basically they don't exist any more. let me repeat that THEY HAVE CEASED TO EXIST. So how is it jumping to conclusions to believe that that something that no longer exists as an entity is no longer alive?
To be more precise, they are ex-parrots.
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Old April 17 2013, 05:04 AM   #382
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
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The Enterprise crew were only truly interesting when they took their clothes off.
Actually that was one of the biggest flaws of ENT. I felt so embarrassed to be a Trek fans while watching that series because of how many near naked bodies and decon scenes thrown at our faces.
Agreed. All that random nudity just seemed as artificial as... well dare I say it, T'Pol's boobs. If I wanted random nudity and sexiness I'd just go for the real thing instead of a sci-fi show.
There was nothing artificial about TPols mammarys.. I know from experience...
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Old April 17 2013, 05:08 AM   #383
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

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I don't think you do. If it's in her power to bring them back, she's ethically obliged to do so.
Then why didn't Janeway take Neelix's lungs back in Phage again? She gave a long winded speech about how humanity was above that sort of thing.
Thats another good point. Now that i think about it, this episode really bothers me. The writers really should have saved this one for a time when they wanted to "write neelix off the show" rather than a filler/fluffer episode since it really just further shows her double standards and inept leadership
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Old April 17 2013, 06:57 AM   #384
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Well according to the episode already mention where Barclay was aware during transport no they are not.
^Non sequitur. That was a different debate with someone else. Unconscious people are transported all the time, and Picard was actually transported while dead then revived in sickbay. Continuity of consciousness doesn't seem to have any impact.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
No not really, Tuvix materialized on the pad thus the transporter process is finished as in done, completed, no longer in process. you know the point you said they stopped trying at.
It's like you haven't seen the episode. Also, you're confusing me with someone else.

Far from giving up instantly, reversing the accident is the B plot for the rest of the episode. Seriously, you need to remember the episode if you're going to debate it. If you think they stopped trying to save Tuvok and Neelix after Tuvix materialized, then you've forgotten a large chunk of the plot. Here's a refresher: http://www.chakoteya.net/voyager/220.htm

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
As the viewer, I'm going to take their word for it,
And I'm not since it sounds like just being optimistic about a situation they don't know squat about.
Janeway's senior staff have established themselves, to the viewer, as honest and competent. We're meant to take what they say as fact. If you want to disregard the dialog of the characters and the development of those characters over the series, I suppose I should give you kudos for creativity. But I can't debate the alternative characters and hidden motivations you've crafted for yourself. Aside from Neelix, it would be completely out of character for Janeway's staff to bluster their way through a problem to create false hope.

And it turned out that Janeway's staff were correct. The accident was indeed reversible, like so many other Trek transporter accidents.
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Old April 17 2013, 07:17 AM   #385
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Defiant Obrien wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
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I don't think you do. If it's in her power to bring them back, she's ethically obliged to do so.
Then why didn't Janeway take Neelix's lungs back in Phage again? She gave a long winded speech about how humanity was above that sort of thing.
Thats another good point. Now that i think about it, this episode really bothers me. The writers really should have saved this one for a time when they wanted to "write neelix off the show" rather than a filler/fluffer episode since it really just further shows her double standards and inept leadership
Or they could have just assumed his lungs were now infected with the phage and unsuitable for transplant.

It bugged me that Janeway didn't take at least one of the lungs back. She let the Vidiians ride off into the sunset after a preachy lecture, as if that somehow settled things. But this was Season 1, I suppose the writers were still finding their feet. Still, it was an unsatisfying episode for me.
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Old April 17 2013, 08:04 AM   #386
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

if she wanted some lungs back, did it really matter which Vidiian she took them from?

If the Phage could jump species, no one would have been safe.

If an example had been made, a mass execution, maybe Durst and B'Elanna wouldn't have been murdered a couple weeks later.

Actually, considering their problems with the Kazon, why not get those two together? Trick the Vidians into harvesting from the Kazon in a less than a cold war under the radar sly sort of way to start a full scale hot war?

That's totally judo, hardly Starfleet but very smart.
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Old April 17 2013, 08:06 AM   #387
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teya wrote: View Post
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Yes you could. If you were a parent you would do it without blinking.
I don't know a single parent who would kill an innocent person to bring back a child.
Then you don't know many parents.
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Old April 17 2013, 08:14 AM   #388
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

It really depends on the age of the child.

Between the ages of 7 and 19, more parents couldn't give a shit.
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Old April 17 2013, 08:31 AM   #389
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
If an example had been made, a mass execution, maybe Durst and B'Elanna wouldn't have been murdered a couple weeks later.
I'm all for slaughter, but if that had happened we'd have been deprived of one of the greatest love stories in Trek... the touching tale of an alien Romeo who'd rip off his own face and replace it with that of his beloved's friend's corpse. It's so rare to find a man who'll go the extra mile to make a girl feel comfortable.
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Old April 17 2013, 08:38 AM   #390
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
It really depends on the age of the child.

Between the ages of 7 and 19, more parents couldn't give a shit.
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