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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old April 16 2013, 09:21 PM   #241
The Caretaker
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

For me, what set alarm bells ringing was in interviews promoting season 3 Jeri Taylor would stated that they were doing away with any form of conflict in the crew to make them more like a happy family, in turn making the show more like the original series. If I wanted happy families I would put The Waltons on. I loved the feel of season 2 (am I alone in liking the Kazon constantly threatening Voyager?). I liked the fact that Voyager moved away from their space as that made sense, but I never felt the Kazon were replaced by anything interesting. The Borg were tired and bit of a cop out really. Ditching Kes was another nail in the coffin as far as I was concerned (again controversial statement, she was my favourite character!). Like a review in TV Zone said, The Year of Hell was frustrating as it depicted what Voyager should have been more of throughout: characters living at the edge of their abilities to survive. It seemed that despite their predicament, life on Voyager became easier and easier as the series went on, and once contact was made with the Alpha Quadrant all sense of risk and danger evaporated.

I always enjoyed watching Voyager whatever the show became, although much of season 6 is pretty painful. It definitely deteriorated over time, but in truth it's hard to pinpoint where.
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Old April 17 2013, 12:25 AM   #242
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Agree wholeheartedly with the "Year of Hell" comment. The sheer desperation of the episode showed what kind of a series they could have done if they didn't decide to play it ridiculously safe, and how did they end it? Reset button.
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Old April 17 2013, 12:42 AM   #243
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Anwar wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
That was one thing Enterprise did get right. If their ship got damaged, they usually made some effort to show they were fixing it and there was continuity from episode to episode. I like how that alien space station detected that Trip crashed the shuttle into the hull during the pilot.
But shows like LEXX, Farscape and Stargate Universe got away without ever having to do constant maintenance on their ships.
Let's see weren't both the Lexx and Moya living ships, so they might have some sort of natural repair mechanism. Just as if I cut myself the wound will heal?

As for the Destiny in SG:U it was barely operational as it was, and didn't we have episodes dealing with resorces they need just to stay alive?
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Old April 17 2013, 01:08 AM   #244
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Stargate Universe was the antiVoyager of the Voyager that we got, and a baldfaced rip off of the Voyager that we were promised.
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Old April 17 2013, 01:15 AM   #245
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Let's see weren't both the Lexx and Moya living ships, so they might have some sort of natural repair mechanism. Just as if I cut myself the wound will heal?

As for the Destiny in SG:U it was barely operational as it was, and didn't we have episodes dealing with resorces they need just to stay alive?
Comparing Voyager with three television series that didn't appear until after it was already launched is like criticizing King Henry VIII for not driving an automobile.
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Old April 17 2013, 03:57 AM   #246
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Is royalty even allowed to drive?

Can you imagine Lizzy going to get her driving licence recertified?

A while back a plod tried to "fine" her, or remarked that she didn't have the balls to fine the the Queen of England for not wearing a set belt during the jaunt to state occasions because and I quote "A seat belt would ruin the line of her dress".

After the press got into an uproar, a second prepared statement was released "The crown cannot prosecute the crown" which if they followed that supposition it would be proof of bipolar psychosis...

If that's true, then although she does not have the powers of an absolute monarch, Elizabeth II does have all the powers of a corrupt police woman that she can verbally issue fines for infractions, be they ever so invented on the spot, and demand prompt and immediate payment.
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Old April 17 2013, 04:48 AM   #247
Anwar
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Melakon wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
Let's see weren't both the Lexx and Moya living ships, so they might have some sort of natural repair mechanism. Just as if I cut myself the wound will heal?

As for the Destiny in SG:U it was barely operational as it was, and didn't we have episodes dealing with resorces they need just to stay alive?
Comparing Voyager with three television series that didn't appear until after it was already launched is like criticizing King Henry VIII for not driving an automobile.
Not when they have similar enough premises and committed those same "flaws" Voyager is always singled out for abuse over.

Of course, this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to how other shows got away with the stuff VOY was condemned for.
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Old April 17 2013, 04:51 AM   #248
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

EnsignRedshirt wrote: View Post
Agree wholeheartedly with the "Year of Hell" comment. The sheer desperation of the episode showed what kind of a series they could have done if they didn't decide to play it ridiculously safe, and how did they end it? Reset button.
Because otherwise, the reaction would've been "What a bunch of losers, Kirk and Picard go through worse situations and they never let THEIR ships get pounded or their crews get mutilated."

And also, if they did that there'd be no way to fix the ship and the show would be over.
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Old April 17 2013, 05:03 AM   #249
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Not when they have similar enough premises and committed those same "flaws" Voyager is always singled out for abuse over.

Of course, this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to how other shows got away with the stuff VOY was condemned for.
All right, maybe I'm missing the point. It read to me like Voyager was being criticized for not coming up with solutions the later shows did, though I've seen none of them.
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Old April 17 2013, 05:31 AM   #250
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

The whole "They're living ships, they can self-repair" thing doesn't really hold up. Even if they are organic, then they'd need to eat stuff to get energy to power their "healing factors" the same way we have to eat to live and power our own "Healing factors".

Voyager has replicators, including Industrial Replicators for Engineering and stuff. They should be able to absorb the raw energy from...virtually anything in space (Suns, Nebulae, random space radiation) to power the Replicators meaning it has just as much a "Healing Factor" as those Living Ships.

So why does it not get this pass that they do?

The Destiny in Stargate Universe was out in space for millions of years and yet it needed no maintenance to function after that time, no one complained there either.
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Old April 17 2013, 05:41 AM   #251
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Th destiny had only been alone for 10 thousand years, and maybe less if the colonists on Earth had kept tabs.

Lex ate planets. It also sexually rooted into planets when it landed and sucked at the natural resources good and hard.

Voyager had bussard collectors which are a type of buzzard ramscoop.

Deuterium is atomically jiggled hydrogen.

Hydrogen is everywhere.
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Old April 17 2013, 06:28 AM   #252
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Voyager has replicators, including Industrial Replicators for Engineering and stuff. They should be able to absorb the raw energy from...virtually anything in space (Suns, Nebulae, random space radiation) to power the Replicators meaning it has just as much a "Healing Factor" as those Living Ships.
That makes perfect sense. Take matter, convert it to energy, replicate whatever. It would seem Voyager should be sustainable forever.

EXCEPT, at the beginning of the series they made a big deal about energy conservation because it was a nice plot device at the time. Any person with half a brain can figure out deuterium is heavy hydrogen and should be readily available or replicable, but they had to use it as a plot device. When the energy shortage wasn't convenient, they didn't even acknowledge it. The problem was consistency.
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Old April 17 2013, 08:05 AM   #253
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

The Caretaker wrote: View Post
(am I alone in liking the Kazon constantly threatening Voyager?). I liked the fact that Voyager moved away from their space as that made sense, but I never felt the Kazon were replaced by anything interesting.
You're not alone, I liked the constant threat as well. The Kazon themselves were a little silly with their giant hair and general idiocy, but they were still a menace to Voyager.

I would have liked to have seen more of the Vaduwar. http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Vaadwaur They zoomed off into their subspace corridors never to be heard from again, which is a shame because they had such a great backstory.
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Old April 17 2013, 08:35 AM   #254
Anwar
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
Voyager has replicators, including Industrial Replicators for Engineering and stuff. They should be able to absorb the raw energy from...virtually anything in space (Suns, Nebulae, random space radiation) to power the Replicators meaning it has just as much a "Healing Factor" as those Living Ships.
That makes perfect sense. Take matter, convert it to energy, replicate whatever. It would seem Voyager should be sustainable forever.

EXCEPT, at the beginning of the series they made a big deal about energy conservation because it was a nice plot device at the time. Any person with half a brain can figure out deuterium is heavy hydrogen and should be readily available or replicable, but they had to use it as a plot device. When the energy shortage wasn't convenient, they didn't even acknowledge it. The problem was consistency.
Exactly, they made a big deal out of things that didn't really make sense.

For example, they said they couldn't make more torpedoes.

Why?

Why couldn't they make more torpedoes? What was stopping them? They could replicate the casings, and they had an anti-matter reactor for the anti-matter in the torpedoes. So why bother saying they couldn't make more?

Other things, they just shouldn't been a bit more careful with. They shouldn't have destroyed and crashed shuttles so often. Nothing wrong with just having them land and some other plot device beyond "crash" keeping them from leaving.

Being on the move so often also constrained them. If they'd been in some region of space that messed up their long-range sensors or their warp drive so they couldn't move fast, then they can flesh out their surroundings better and give more stories about the locals.

Stuff like that.
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Old April 18 2013, 09:51 AM   #255
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Year of Hell holds up because Kurtwood Smith sells Annorax.

But it's not a survivalist epic. Perhaps the low point is when the Voyager is so full of holes that the fog (called a "nebula") leaks in? I'm sorry but the depths of stupid in that scene are abysmal.

Or perhaps the low point is when this wreck supposedly can engage in combat, surviving long enough to ram Annorax' ship? Sorry, no, not bloody likely, no matter if they write a line about how surprisingly weak the Krenim timeship is. Unfortunately, the plot mechanics of the resolution require accepting this lunacy.

Year of Hell merely makes ungodly demands on willing suspension of disbelief. There is no sense in which it fulfils any premises. The story that Braga wanted to drag this out for a full season just reminds us that he isn't the best writer in TV SF.
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