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Old April 16 2013, 10:01 PM   #361
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

BillJ wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

So is lithium crystals, anti-matter destroying the universe, being able to create two people of the same mass out of one person, being able to merge two being into one that has equal mass of the two and so on...

Just because it's canon doesn't mean it makes sense.
"The Enemy Within" presents a very similar situation, but I never see anyone arguing that Evil Kirk has a right to live. Except Evil Kirk's objections: "I wanna live!"
Yeah. I brought that up earlier in the thread but it doesn't fit anyone's pro-Tuvix arguments so it got ignored.
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...5&postcount=61

Read everything and try again.

But to sum it up EvilKirk was DYING, as in he was already going to die, Tuvix was not.

spot_loves_data wrote: View Post
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Yes but how many transporter accidents result in the creation of a new lifeform?
Meh. There's usually some new twist. It's still just a transporter accident, not anything worth tossing out years of canon over.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
spot_loves_data wrote: View Post
accepted as canon that mid-transport accidents result in the victim being held in a sort of stasis?
Does that look like stasis to you? Becuase that sure as hell looks like horrible death to me.
Actually, most of that clip showed people in stasis. So, yes, it looked like stasis to me. Notice how the crew didn't immediately assume their crewmates were dead when the transporter began to fail. They worked up until the last moment and only stopped when they were faced with mutilated corpses.
That wasn't stasis that was them trying to reintegrate them when they couldn't stop the beaming process or reverse it and you noticed they didn't try to feed what materialized on earth back through the transporter to get Sonak and the other person back.

Putting someone is stasis is sticking them in the pattern buffer until you re-materialize them.
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Old April 16 2013, 10:05 PM   #362
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

"The Enemy Within" specifically states Evil Kirk is dying, so presumably Good Kirk is too. Before medical treatment cures their "mental illnesses", they'd both be dead. Spock should have assumed command immediately, as soon as it was evident Good Kirk was having reasoning problems.
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Old April 16 2013, 10:05 PM   #363
Sadara
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Sadara wrote: View Post
Hmmm... I wonder if that's because evil Kirk was evil and therefore it's okay to bring regular Kirk back.
In that case, Kirk needed to be integrated, because "good Kirk" was incapable of being a captain - without his dark side, as it were, he couldn't exercise command decisions. Also, "evil Kirk" was an evident threat to the ship. So those two things make it more obvious in Kirk's case than in Tuvix's.
That's my point though. If Tuvix was evil would that make a more palatable case for the decision to bring Tuvok and Neelix back? I'm interested in finding out how much the actual character of the individual influences how people feel about Tuvix and his right to life.
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Old April 16 2013, 10:05 PM   #364
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Read everything and try again.
I missed a post, it happens.
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Old April 16 2013, 10:07 PM   #365
BillJ
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Sadara wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Sadara wrote: View Post
Hmmm... I wonder if that's because evil Kirk was evil and therefore it's okay to bring regular Kirk back.
In that case, Kirk needed to be integrated, because "good Kirk" was incapable of being a captain - without his dark side, as it were, he couldn't exercise command decisions. Also, "evil Kirk" was an evident threat to the ship. So those two things make it more obvious in Kirk's case than in Tuvix's.
That's my point though. If Tuvix was evil would that make a more palatable case for the decision to bring Tuvok and Neelix back? I'm interested in finding out how much the actual character of the individual influences how people feel about Tuvix and his right to life.
That was what I and other posters were getting at earlier. Guess I should have used 'evil' instead of 'sentient monster'.
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Old April 16 2013, 10:15 PM   #366
Sadara
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

BillJ wrote: View Post
Sadara wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post

In that case, Kirk needed to be integrated, because "good Kirk" was incapable of being a captain - without his dark side, as it were, he couldn't exercise command decisions. Also, "evil Kirk" was an evident threat to the ship. So those two things make it more obvious in Kirk's case than in Tuvix's.
That's my point though. If Tuvix was evil would that make a more palatable case for the decision to bring Tuvok and Neelix back? I'm interested in finding out how much the actual character of the individual influences how people feel about Tuvix and his right to life.
That was what I and other posters were getting at earlier. Guess I should have used 'evil' instead of 'sentient monster'.
Sorry, I hadn't been reading the thread for a few days and didn't get as far back as I probably should have. Let's throw sentient monster Kirk out there and see what happens...

And the evil Kirk and good Kirk dying as a reason to reintegrate them isn't working for me when the argument against restoring Tuvok and Neelix is they died when they were integrated into one being. Along those lines Regular Kirk died when he was split into two sentient beings with rights. I personally don't agree with this, but following that argument both Kirks should have been allowed to die as the natural course of things in that episode. Or McCoy would simply have had to find a way to save both Kirks without reintegrating them in order to avoid violating the Hippocratic Oath or whatever.

And never mind all the things regular Kirk accomplished as a result of being reintegrated because that just doesn't hold up against evil Kirk's right to live.

Last edited by Sadara; April 16 2013 at 10:28 PM.
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Old April 16 2013, 10:17 PM   #367
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Sadara wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Sadara wrote: View Post

That's my point though. If Tuvix was evil would that make a more palatable case for the decision to bring Tuvok and Neelix back? I'm interested in finding out how much the actual character of the individual influences how people feel about Tuvix and his right to life.
That was what I and other posters were getting at earlier. Guess I should have used 'evil' instead of 'sentient monster'.
Sorry, I hadn't been reading the thread for a few days and didn't get as far back as I probably should have. Let's throw sentient monster Kirk out there and see what happens...
He dies even without being reintegrated. Which is why reintegrating the Kirks seemed more like euthanasia instead of murder.
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Old April 16 2013, 10:18 PM   #368
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Sadara wrote: View Post

Sorry, I hadn't been reading the thread for a few days and didn't get as far back as I probably should have. Let's throw sentient monster Kirk out there and see what happens...


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Old April 16 2013, 10:24 PM   #369
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

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It's not often an argument on a Star Trek board leaves me speechless, but congrats! You just did.
I think you're taking the argument a little too seriously.
You're the one who said that no one would know if they'd kill to keep a loved one alive until they were in that situation.

I call bullshit.
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Old April 16 2013, 10:25 PM   #370
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teya wrote: View Post

You're the one who said that no one would know if they'd kill to keep a loved one alive until they were in that situation.

I call bullshit.
Let me know when you're put in that situation.
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Old April 16 2013, 10:26 PM   #371
teya
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Melakon wrote: View Post
"The Enemy Within" specifically states Evil Kirk is dying, so presumably Good Kirk is too. Before medical treatment cures their "mental illnesses", they'd both be dead. Spock should have assumed command immediately, as soon as it was evident Good Kirk was having reasoning problems.
And that 2 halves of the same person can't survive alone is seen once again at the end of "Faces."
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Old April 16 2013, 10:27 PM   #372
JanewayRulz!
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Sadara wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Sadara wrote: View Post
Hmmm... I wonder if that's because evil Kirk was evil and therefore it's okay to bring regular Kirk back.
In that case, Kirk needed to be integrated, because "good Kirk" was incapable of being a captain - without his dark side, as it were, he couldn't exercise command decisions. Also, "evil Kirk" was an evident threat to the ship. So those two things make it more obvious in Kirk's case than in Tuvix's.
That's my point though. If Tuvix was evil would that make a more palatable case for the decision to bring Tuvok and Neelix back? I'm interested in finding out how much the actual character of the individual influences how people feel about Tuvix and his right to life.
Speaking from the perspective of what makes an interesting episode... the writers wouldn't have wanted to make the decision more palatable. That's the point.

Janeway did kill Tuvix.

That should never be easy.

Janeway certainly doesn't think so, as she leaves sickbay with a look of resignation / muted (?) horror on her face.
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Old April 16 2013, 10:34 PM   #373
teya
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

BillJ wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post

You're the one who said that no one would know if they'd kill to keep a loved one alive until they were in that situation.

I call bullshit.
Let me know when you're put in that situation.
I was.

I'm the widow of someone who died while on a transplant list.

Never would it have occured to me that it would be justifiable to kill someone else to get him a new kidney.

That is immoral.

So, yeah, bullshit on your argument.
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Old April 16 2013, 10:41 PM   #374
BillJ
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teya wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post

You're the one who said that no one would know if they'd kill to keep a loved one alive until they were in that situation.

I call bullshit.
Let me know when you're put in that situation.
I was.

I'm the widow of someone who died while on a transplant list.

Never would it have occured to me that it would be justifiable to kill someone else to get him a new kidney.

That is immoral.

So, yeah, bullshit on your argument.
One, I'm sorry for your loss.

While I disagree with your statements I'll let it go at that.
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Old April 16 2013, 10:43 PM   #375
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I'd say teya wins this thread. And Kes deserves a swift kick in the pants. The end.
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