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Old April 16 2013, 09:12 PM   #346
R. Star
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Personally I'd hope that no one would kill someone "without blinking" no matter the circumstances. Though that's obviously a forlorn hope...
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Old April 16 2013, 09:13 PM   #347
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Deckerd wrote: View Post
Yes you could. If you were a parent you would do it without blinking.
I don't know a single parent who would kill an innocent person to bring back a child.

And, since it appears to be Kes's plea to bring back her lover (and Janeway's desire to have Kes avoid the grief she & the rest of the crew feel at being separated from their loved ones) that helps Janeway to the final decision, I can state categorically:

I could not and would never even consider killing someone to save my sweetie.

Perhaps, in the view of people here, that means I didn't love him enough.
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Old April 16 2013, 09:16 PM   #348
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teya wrote: View Post
Deckerd wrote: View Post
Yes you could. If you were a parent you would do it without blinking.
I don't know a single parent who would kill an innocent person to bring back a child.

And, since it appears to be Kes's plea to bring back her lover (and Janeway's desire to have Kes avoid the grief she & the rest of the crew feel at being separated from their loved ones) that helps Janeway to the final decision, I can state categorically:

I could not and would never even consider killing someone to save my sweetie.

Perhaps, in the view of people here, that means I didn't love him enough.
As far as that stream of thought goes: I'm not sure anyone knows with certainty what they would do in a situation like that until they were actually in that type of situation.
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Old April 16 2013, 09:19 PM   #349
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

BillJ wrote: View Post
The "uninterrupted stream of consciousness" argument is incredibly flawed. How can such a thing exist when your brain is disassembled and converted to energy at the subatomic level?
and yet its still canon. Heck we even see another example of it on Enterprise when the guy who invented the transporter's son was stuck has a energy cloud and seemed to be trying to communicate with them.
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Old April 16 2013, 09:20 PM   #350
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Sci wrote: View Post
Sadara wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

well considering they probably already thought he was dead at the time....
So that justifies not bringing Tuvok back?
Nobody brought Tuvok back. Tuvok's gone. They created a copy of Tuvok; they did not resurrect him.
If you see them as copies, that's fine. I don't and I think Tuvok and Neelix have the right to be returned to their normal lives.
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Old April 16 2013, 09:24 PM   #351
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

and yet its still canon.
So is lithium crystals, anti-matter destroying the universe, being able to create two people of the same mass out of one person, being able to merge two being into one that has equal mass of the two and so on...

Just because it's canon doesn't mean it makes sense.
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Old April 16 2013, 09:30 PM   #352
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

BillJ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

and yet its still canon.
So is lithium crystals, anti-matter destroying the universe, being able to create two people of the same mass out of one person, being able to merge two being into one that has equal mass of the two and so on...

Just because it's canon doesn't mean it makes sense.
"The Enemy Within" presents a very similar situation, but I never see anyone arguing that Evil Kirk has a right to live. Except Evil Kirk's objections: "I wanna live!"
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Old April 16 2013, 09:32 PM   #353
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Melakon wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

and yet its still canon.
So is lithium crystals, anti-matter destroying the universe, being able to create two people of the same mass out of one person, being able to merge two being into one that has equal mass of the two and so on...

Just because it's canon doesn't mean it makes sense.
"The Enemy Within" presents a very similar situation, but I never see anyone arguing that Evil Kirk has a right to live. Except Evil Kirk's objections: "I wanna live!"
Yeah. I brought that up earlier in the thread but it doesn't fit anyone's pro-Tuvix arguments so it got ignored.
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Old April 16 2013, 09:34 PM   #354
teya
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

BillJ wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post
Deckerd wrote: View Post
Yes you could. If you were a parent you would do it without blinking.
I don't know a single parent who would kill an innocent person to bring back a child.

And, since it appears to be Kes's plea to bring back her lover (and Janeway's desire to have Kes avoid the grief she & the rest of the crew feel at being separated from their loved ones) that helps Janeway to the final decision, I can state categorically:

I could not and would never even consider killing someone to save my sweetie.

Perhaps, in the view of people here, that means I didn't love him enough.
As far as that stream of thought goes: I'm not sure anyone knows with certainty what they would do in a situation like that until they were actually in that type of situation.
You're kidding, right?

I'm sorry, but there was no question in my mind before I even met my sweetie that I would kill someone to provide a medical cure for someone I loved.

That's really a no-brainer, isn't it? Or is life so fucking cheap these days that there are actually people out there who would think it absolutely moral to kill someone to provide a kidney for their lover?

It's not often an argument on a Star Trek board leaves me speechless, but congrats! You just did.

Here's a news flash, folks. Death is the *only* thing we are guaranteed when we're born. And it's inevitable. We cannot avoid losing people we love. We certainly can't justify killing someone else to keep our loved ones with us longer.
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Old April 16 2013, 09:42 PM   #355
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

BillJ wrote: View Post
The "uninterrupted stream of consciousness" argument is incredibly flawed. How can such a thing exist when your brain is disassembled and converted to energy at the subatomic level?
How can such a thing exist? Very well, apparently.

How do Heisenberg compensators work? How does warp drive work? Replicators?

Star Trek is full of implausible technologies, but they are part of the conceits of the ST Universe. One of those conceits, firmly established in the canon, is that a person who is beamed by a properly-functioning transporter, has complete continuity of consciousness.

Tuvok and Neelix, in this episode, do not. They are dead; the Tuvok and Neelix who are created at the end of the episode are copies, not the originals.

And, yes, I'm inclined to make similar arguments about the William Riker/Thomas Riker incident, and even the "Enemy Within" scenario. I think the original William T. Riker died in that accident established in "Second Chances," and that the two Rikers created by that are copies, not the original -- that, in other words, the William T. Riker born in Alaska should have been declared legally dead and his copies issued their own separate birth certificates backdated to the time of the transporter accident, given their own Federation Social Security Numbers (or whatever the UFP uses), etc. Same with the Evil!Kirk and Good!Kirk, and then with the resulting Reintegrated!Kirk. Etc.
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Old April 16 2013, 09:43 PM   #356
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teya wrote: View Post
It's not often an argument on a Star Trek board leaves me speechless, but congrats! You just did.
I think you're taking the argument a little too seriously.
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Old April 16 2013, 09:44 PM   #357
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Yes but how many transporter accidents result in the creation of a new lifeform?
Meh. There's usually some new twist. It's still just a transporter accident, not anything worth tossing out years of canon over.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
spot_loves_data wrote: View Post
accepted as canon that mid-transport accidents result in the victim being held in a sort of stasis?
Does that look like stasis to you? Becuase that sure as hell looks like horrible death to me.
Actually, most of that clip showed people in stasis. So, yes, it looked like stasis to me. Notice how the crew didn't immediately assume their crewmates were dead when the transporter began to fail. They worked up until the last moment and only stopped when they were faced with mutilated corpses.

Transporter accidents in Trek are usually problems to be solved. Sure, there's the occasional fatality, but there are too many transporter accident survivors to believe that these situations are irreversible. If death were certain, we'd never have had entire episodes devoted to transporter malfunctions.
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Old April 16 2013, 09:44 PM   #358
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

BillJ wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

So is lithium crystals, anti-matter destroying the universe, being able to create two people of the same mass out of one person, being able to merge two being into one that has equal mass of the two and so on...

Just because it's canon doesn't mean it makes sense.
"The Enemy Within" presents a very similar situation, but I never see anyone arguing that Evil Kirk has a right to live. Except Evil Kirk's objections: "I wanna live!"
Yeah. I brought that up earlier in the thread but it doesn't fit anyone's pro-Tuvix arguments so it got ignored.
Hmmm... I wonder if that's because evil Kirk was evil and therefore it's okay to bring regular Kirk back. Maybe if Tuvix had been evil, we'd be seeing more "sure, let's bring Tuvok and Neelix back."
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Old April 16 2013, 09:47 PM   #359
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Sadara wrote: View Post
Hmmm... I wonder if that's because evil Kirk was evil and therefore it's okay to bring regular Kirk back.
In that case, Kirk needed to be integrated, because "good Kirk" was incapable of being a captain - without his dark side, as it were, he couldn't exercise command decisions. Also, "evil Kirk" was an evident threat to the ship. So those two things make it more obvious in Kirk's case than in Tuvix's.
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Old April 16 2013, 09:54 PM   #360
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Sadara wrote: View Post
Hmmm... I wonder if that's because evil Kirk was evil and therefore it's okay to bring regular Kirk back.
In that case, Kirk needed to be integrated, because "good Kirk" was incapable of being a captain - without his dark side, as it were, he couldn't exercise command decisions. Also, "evil Kirk" was an evident threat to the ship. So those two things make it more obvious in Kirk's case than in Tuvix's.
I'm more inclined to argue that the two Kirks were each new, unique persons who each suffered from mental illnesses requiring medical treatment, not death in order to create a new, fourth person.
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