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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old April 16 2013, 02:06 PM   #61
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

R. Star wrote: View Post
The shooting Data bit for finding the holoship is a bit ambiguous as we never actually saw the events that occurred. If I had to guess it was because Data declared he was going to reveal it to everyone and compromise the whole operation.
Yeah becuase kidnapping people in their sleep is so noble
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Old April 16 2013, 03:20 PM   #62
sonak
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
The shooting Data bit for finding the holoship is a bit ambiguous as we never actually saw the events that occurred. If I had to guess it was because Data declared he was going to reveal it to everyone and compromise the whole operation.
Yeah becuase kidnapping people in their sleep is so noble

relocating, not kidnapping
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Old April 16 2013, 04:00 PM   #63
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

sonak wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
The shooting Data bit for finding the holoship is a bit ambiguous as we never actually saw the events that occurred. If I had to guess it was because Data declared he was going to reveal it to everyone and compromise the whole operation.
Yeah becuase kidnapping people in their sleep is so noble

relocating, not kidnapping
here's the legal definition

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...com/kidnapping

Here is the relevant part

Generally, kidnapping occurs when a person, without lawful authority, physically asports (i.e., moves) another person without that other person's consent, with the intent to use the abduction in connection with some other nefarious objective. Under the Model Penal Code (a set of exemplary criminal rules fashioned by the American Law Institute), kidnapping occurs when any person is unlawfully and non-consensually asported and held for certain purposes. These purposes include gaining a ransom or reward; facilitating the commission of a felony or a flight after the commission of a felony; terrorizing or inflicting bodily injury on the victim or a third person; and interfering with a governmental or political function (Model Penal Code § 212.1).
So explain to me how it isn't kidnapping?
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Old April 16 2013, 04:22 PM   #64
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

"interfering with a governmental or political function"

It is userping the function of the Baku government, for one.

"kidnapping occurs when a person, without lawful authority, physically asports (i.e., moves) another person without that other person's consent, with the intent to use the abduction in connection with some other nefarious objective."

This is EXACTLY what the Son'a are doing, only en masse.

If it applies to the singular, then it applies en masse to the plural. Otherwise, kidnapping charges can be skipped if more than one person is taken.
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Old April 16 2013, 05:23 PM   #65
sonak
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

Yeah becuase kidnapping people in their sleep is so noble

relocating, not kidnapping
here's the legal definition

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...com/kidnapping

Here is the relevant part

Generally, kidnapping occurs when a person, without lawful authority, physically asports (i.e., moves) another person without that other person's consent, with the intent to use the abduction in connection with some other nefarious objective. Under the Model Penal Code (a set of exemplary criminal rules fashioned by the American Law Institute), kidnapping occurs when any person is unlawfully and non-consensually asported and held for certain purposes. These purposes include gaining a ransom or reward; facilitating the commission of a felony or a flight after the commission of a felony; terrorizing or inflicting bodily injury on the victim or a third person; and interfering with a governmental or political function (Model Penal Code § 212.1).
So explain to me how it isn't kidnapping?

1. They had lawful authority (the UFP was the legal and recognized government of that territory)

2. the objective wasn't nefarious
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Old April 16 2013, 05:43 PM   #66
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

sonak wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post


relocating, not kidnapping
here's the legal definition

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...com/kidnapping

Here is the relevant part

Generally, kidnapping occurs when a person, without lawful authority, physically asports (i.e., moves) another person without that other person's consent, with the intent to use the abduction in connection with some other nefarious objective. Under the Model Penal Code (a set of exemplary criminal rules fashioned by the American Law Institute), kidnapping occurs when any person is unlawfully and non-consensually asported and held for certain purposes. These purposes include gaining a ransom or reward; facilitating the commission of a felony or a flight after the commission of a felony; terrorizing or inflicting bodily injury on the victim or a third person; and interfering with a governmental or political function (Model Penal Code § 212.1).
So explain to me how it isn't kidnapping?

1. They had lawful authority (the UFP was the legal and recognized government of that territory)
The Ba'ku claim predates the existence of the federation by a century, and they never joined the federation. So no they don't have legal authority over the Ba'ku.

2. the objective wasn't nefarious
Their objective was to render the planet uninhabitable becuase they don't want to get old. Yeah kind of sounds like it is.
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Old April 16 2013, 06:31 PM   #67
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
The Ba'ku claim predates the existence of the federation by a century ...
What claim?

At no point in the movie did the Baku ever claim the planet, or express anything verbally that could be taken as indicating they feel they "owned" it.

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Old April 16 2013, 06:42 PM   #68
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
The Ba'ku claim predates the existence of the federation by a century ...
What claim?

At no point in the movie did the Baku ever claim the planet, or express anything verbally that could be taken as indicating they feel they "owned" it.
Neither did any of the Federation colonies (some of whom have smaller populations than the Ba'ku) shown over the years and yet Starfleet seemed to treat those places like federation territory.
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Old April 16 2013, 08:25 PM   #69
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
The Ba'ku claim predates the existence of the federation by a century ...
What claim?

At no point in the movie did the Baku ever claim the planet, or express anything verbally that could be taken as indicating they feel they "owned" it.

They referred to it as their home many times.

They were living there as the sole occupants for a significant period of time (nothing specific, but seemlingly hundreds of years).

To whom would they file their claim? Does the Federation or Starfleet, or whatever empire etc., around have a formal system of some kind?
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Old April 16 2013, 08:29 PM   #70
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
They were living there as the sole occupants for a significant period of time (nothing specific, but seemlingly hundreds of years).
Actually they said the first arrived on the planet 300 years before the film took place. Which again I stress means they lived their before there was a United Federation of Planets.
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Old April 16 2013, 08:36 PM   #71
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

At this point I think the movie would have been more entertaining if it turned out the Baku had exterminated another race in order to claim the planet for themselves.
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Old April 17 2013, 02:49 AM   #72
sonak
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

here's the legal definition

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...com/kidnapping

Here is the relevant part

So explain to me how it isn't kidnapping?

1. They had lawful authority (the UFP was the legal and recognized government of that territory)
The Ba'ku claim predates the existence of the federation by a century, and they never joined the federation. So no they don't have legal authority over the Ba'ku.

2. the objective wasn't nefarious
Their objective was to render the planet uninhabitable becuase they don't want to get old. Yeah kind of sounds like it is.

the Baku don't want to get old either, that's why they stayed there.

Still, none of this premise makes sense. The Son'a have as much right to the planet as the Baku-why didn't they just tell the UFP that they have a claim on the planet, and that THEY'RE fine with using the particle-collecting procedure?

Whatever, the premise falls apart if you think about it for one minute.

600 pacifists kick a bunch of rebels OFF OF AN ENTIRE PLANET.
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Old April 17 2013, 10:22 AM   #73
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

sonak wrote: View Post
Son'a ... why didn't they just tell the UFP that they have a claim on the planet
Because their hold on the entire planet and the rings was just as thin as the Baku. The Federation's legal possession of the area wasn't in dispute, which is why the Sona brought the Federation in to the arrangement.

If the Sona felt that they had a clear and legal claim to the planet, one that the Federation wouldn't contend later, they would have simply moved the Baku out without ceremony, and harvested the rings.

Problem with that would be the Federation did see the region as theirs.

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Old April 17 2013, 07:57 PM   #74
sonak
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

T'Girl wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Son'a ... why didn't they just tell the UFP that they have a claim on the planet
Because their hold on the entire planet and the rings was just as thin as the Baku. The Federation's legal possession of the area wasn't in dispute, which is why the Sona brought the Federation in to the arrangement.

If the Sona felt that they had a clear and legal claim to the planet, one that the Federation wouldn't contend later, they would have simply moved the Baku out without ceremony, and harvested the rings.

Problem with that would be the Federation did see the region as theirs.


well then again, the Baku lose either way, whether it's Federation territory, or because the Son'a have a claim on it.
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Old April 18 2013, 11:11 AM   #75
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

Actually they said the first arrived on the planet 300 years before the film took place. Which again I stress means they lived their before there was a United Federation of Planets.
When the United State acquired the Louisiana territory, it included the city of New Orleans.

This was in the year 1803.

Likely there were people in New Orleans who had lived in the city prior to the formation of the United States some 27 years before.

In 1803 New Orleans became part of the United States.

You keep bringing up how the Baku arrived on the planet prior to the formation of the Federation, but you fail to explain how this means the the planet can't be a part of the Federation. "They were there first." doesn't preclude the planet the Baku are living on becoming a part of the Federation at some point after they arrived.

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