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Old April 16 2013, 07:22 PM   #316
R. Star
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

BillJ wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Just because he was brought into being in a manner that's different from us doesn't invalidate his life or give him any less rights than anyone else. Frankly that's a bit disturbing that you so casually remark that just because someone's different they're less of a person. But it's a common theme in humanity to dehumanize anyone to rationalize their death in their mind.
I don't think that's the point. If the transporter had put together a sentient monster, would everyone be as willing to defend its right to exist vs. the rights of Tuvok and Neelix?
So by calling someone a monster does that somehow justify their killing? You already said it's sentient so by definition it's a person regardless of if you don't like the way it looks for whatever reason. So yes... it's different, you don't like that, so it has less rights than you, seems to be what you're arguing.
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Old April 16 2013, 07:25 PM   #317
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
So by calling someone a monster does that somehow justify their killing? You already said it's sentient so by definition it's a person regardless of if you don't like the way it looks for whatever reason. So yes... it's different, you don't like that, so it has less rights than you, seems to be what you're arguing.
I already stated where I stand on the issue earlier in the thread.

But I'm not sure that many folks would feel as strongly about Tuvix if he had been something outside the norm.
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Old April 16 2013, 07:27 PM   #318
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

BillJ wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Just because he was brought into being in a manner that's different from us doesn't invalidate his life or give him any less rights than anyone else. Frankly that's a bit disturbing that you so casually remark that just because someone's different they're less of a person. But it's a common theme in humanity to dehumanize anyone to rationalize their death in their mind.
I don't think that's the point. If the transporter had put together a sentient monster, would everyone be as willing to defend its right to exist vs. the rights of Tuvok and Neelix?
What exactly qualifies as a monster?

Honestly it just sounds like a decent chunk of the justifications for killing Tuvix are its not natural so we should kill it. What the hell happened to IDIC and all that nice stuff about being tolerant of other lifeforms trek goes on about.

Honestly some of you are starting to sound like the bigoted villagers in most modern versions of Frankenstein.
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Old April 16 2013, 07:43 PM   #319
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
Just because he was brought into being in a manner that's different from us doesn't invalidate his life or give him any less rights than anyone else. Frankly that's a bit disturbing that you so casually remark that just because someone's different they're less of a person. But it's a common theme in humanity to dehumanize anyone to rationalize their death in their mind.
My position has always been that Janeway has an obligation to the lives of her crew, and to do what's best for the ship. It's not a question of whether it's "right" based on human rights moralities, but whether it's to the benefit of the ship.
Disclosure: I have never been a parent, so this undoubtedly affects how I view the issue.
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Old April 16 2013, 07:45 PM   #320
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Melakon wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Just because he was brought into being in a manner that's different from us doesn't invalidate his life or give him any less rights than anyone else. Frankly that's a bit disturbing that you so casually remark that just because someone's different they're less of a person. But it's a common theme in humanity to dehumanize anyone to rationalize their death in their mind.
My position has always been that Janeway has an obligation to the lives of her crew, and to do what's best for the ship. It's not a question of whether it's "right" based on human rights moralities, but whether it's to the benefit of the ship.
Disclosure: I have never been a parent, so this undoubtedly affects how I view the issue.
A fellow named Hitler used a similar argument towards his obligations to Germany.
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Old April 16 2013, 07:48 PM   #321
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Melakon wrote: View Post
My position has always been that Janeway has an obligation to the lives of her crew, and to do what's best for the ship. It's not a question of whether it's "right" based on human rights moralities, but whether it's to the benefit of the ship.
And how the fuck is killing Tuvix best for the crew?

And don't give me the its good for morale bullshit. You don't just murder someone becuase people don't like them its immoral and makes the crew of Voyager look like monsters.
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Old April 16 2013, 08:01 PM   #322
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Just because we disagree doesn't mean either of us is right. The episode by design poses an unanswerable question. It's a no-win situation.

R. Star wins the thread by invoking Godwin's Law.
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Old April 16 2013, 08:04 PM   #323
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

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Yeah the fundamental problem with the murder charge is that not to do anything would be condemning two colleagues to oblivion, since they aren't dead.
This sums up my view.

Isn't it pretty much accepted as canon that mid-transport accidents result in the victim being held in a sort of stasis? We've seen more transporter mishaps in all the series than I care to count. The reaction of the crew is never "Whoops, lost another one. Oh well, fuck it, guess he's gone now. Nothing we can do about it at this point."

The crew works overtime to get their people back and they're usually successful. We've seen too many weird transporter accidents result (eventually) in happy endings to assume that in this one particular case, the victims should automatically be assumed dead.
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Old April 16 2013, 08:19 PM   #324
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Yes but how many transporter accidents result in the creation of a new lifeform? One of starfleet. To quote Picard

Starfleet was founded to seek out new life. Well, there he sits, your honour, waiting on our decision. You have a chance to make law. Well, let's make a good one. Let us be wise.
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Old April 16 2013, 08:20 PM   #325
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

spot_loves_data wrote: View Post
accepted as canon that mid-transport accidents result in the victim being held in a sort of stasis?


Does that look like stasis to you? Becuase that sure as hell looks like horrible death to me.
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Old April 16 2013, 08:34 PM   #326
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Just because he was brought into being in a manner that's different from us doesn't invalidate his life or give him any less rights than anyone else. Frankly that's a bit disturbing that you so casually remark that just because someone's different they're less of a person. But it's a common theme in humanity to dehumanize anyone to rationalize their death in their mind.
My position has always been that Janeway has an obligation to the lives of her crew, and to do what's best for the ship. It's not a question of whether it's "right" based on human rights moralities, but whether it's to the benefit of the ship.
Disclosure: I have never been a parent, so this undoubtedly affects how I view the issue.
A fellow named Hitler used a similar argument towards his obligations to Germany.
At the end of the day, setting 70,000 light-years from the Alpha Quadrant, it's a simple numbers game. Unless we're going to make Tuvix work sixteen hours a day in both security and in the kitchen, two people are simply better to help Voyager attain its goal of getting home.

In the AQ, it's a different ballgame.
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Old April 16 2013, 08:38 PM   #327
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

BillJ wrote: View Post
At the end of the day, setting 70,000 light-years from the Alpha Quadrant, it's a simple numbers game. Unless we're going to make Tuvix work sixteen hours a day in both security and in the kitchen, two people are simply better to help Voyager attain its goal of getting home.
Considering Neelix left the ship and they didn't have a problem finding a new guy to take over I call bullshit on this. Starfleet ships don't fall apart becuase two people died they have people to take over positions in that case in fact that was show by the freaking early episodes already.
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Old April 16 2013, 08:41 PM   #328
R. Star
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

BillJ wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post

My position has always been that Janeway has an obligation to the lives of her crew, and to do what's best for the ship. It's not a question of whether it's "right" based on human rights moralities, but whether it's to the benefit of the ship.
Disclosure: I have never been a parent, so this undoubtedly affects how I view the issue.
A fellow named Hitler used a similar argument towards his obligations to Germany.
At the end of the day, setting 70,000 light-years from the Alpha Quadrant, it's a simple numbers game. Unless we're going to make Tuvix work sixteen hours a day in both security and in the kitchen, two people are simply better to help Voyager attain its goal of getting home.

In the AQ, it's a different ballgame.
Sorry, but playing god with people's lives is not "simple numbers game" or a game at all, and it's either right or wrong. Where they are is inconsequential.
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Old April 16 2013, 08:41 PM   #329
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

If it's really just a numbers "game", then it's ironic that Janeway, who pushed so hard to uphold Starfleet ideals (most of the time), would be so willing to look the other way at a time when executing a sentient being was involved.

Though it would have been hilarious if she threw this in the faces of those who encouraged her to show more flexibility.
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Old April 16 2013, 08:43 PM   #330
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I see Tuvix as a parasite.
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