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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old April 15 2013, 07:09 PM   #226
lennier1
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Melakon wrote: View Post
I still think it's unfair to criticize the pristine ship look. Many of Voyager's beauty shots were of the physical miniature, which couldn't be easily altered. I don't know when it began using cgi ships extensively, though battle damage would still have meant several versions being built with successive decay, which means new renders and effects, which costs more money. The biggest obstacle was UPN wanting episodic rather than serialized format. Small, three story arcs would have helped in some storylines.
Small refresher for better understanding:

S1 was physical models with CG effects thrown in. S2&3 were the transition from physical to CG and from S4 onward the occasional rare stock footage of Voyager's physical model was the only remnant of the show's physical roots. Everything else had already gone digital by then.

The lions share of CG effects for Voyager and DS9 was done by Digital Muse (originally intended to become DS9's main supplier) and Foundation Imaging (Voyager's intended counterpart). The latter being the company which had revolutionized the use of CGI in television with their work on the first two seasons of Babylon 5.

While the companies were originally intended to each take care of their own show, in the end they constantly supported each other in order to shoulder the massive amount of work.
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Old April 15 2013, 07:11 PM   #227
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

^Well if UPN want an episodic show, why go with an idea which leans more to serialisation. If you set up the shows premise as bening far from home without access to new crew/ starbase repair facilites etc.. It's not unreasonable to expect the audiance to expect to get to know some of non-main crew members/ the ship to start to look less pristine etc.. For all the crew knew Voyager might have been their home for the rest of their lives, if you believe that this is going to be where you might spend the rest of your life you would expect a few more personal touches.
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Old April 15 2013, 07:20 PM   #228
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

lennier1 wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
. . .blah bla-blah blah. . .
. . .S1 was physical models with CG effects thrown in. S2&3 were the transition from physical to CG and from S4 onward the occasional rare stock footage of Voyager's physical model was the only remnant of the show's physical roots. Everything else had already gone digital by then. . .
I think the best we could have hoped for then, beginning with Season 4, would have been the gradual introduction of successively deteriorated models during sweeps weeks, which happened two or three times per season. Though it would have necessarily delayed some effects work until that new model was available.
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Old April 15 2013, 07:59 PM   #229
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

While I would have preferred a more serialized show, there's nothing wrong with episodic television if the episodes are good and original.

Most of Voyager's episodes seemed to follow one of two patterns

1) Ship encounters anomaly that puts her in danger -> crewmember has personal problem that parallels the anomaly problem -> crewmember has Big Realization that somehow applies to both problems -> The Day Is Saved with technobabble

2) Mean forehead aliens remind Voyager she's in a bad neighborhood -> Janeway & Co. have a talk -> high-minded Federation ideals come into question -> just before our ideals are abandoned somebody comes up with some technobabble that Saves the Day.
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Old April 15 2013, 10:51 PM   #230
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Melakon wrote: View Post
I still think it's unfair to criticize the pristine ship look. Many of Voyager's beauty shots were of the physical miniature, which couldn't be easily altered. I don't know when it began using cgi ships extensively, though battle damage would still have meant several versions being built with successive decay, which means new renders and effects, which costs more money.
What about internal? Sets can be dressed to look like they've had the crap kicked out of them over time.

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
While I would have preferred a more serialized show, there's nothing wrong with episodic television if the episodes are good and original.

Most of Voyager's episodes seemed to follow one of two patterns

1) Ship encounters anomaly that puts her in danger -> crewmember has personal problem that parallels the anomaly problem -> crewmember has Big Realization that somehow applies to both problems -> The Day Is Saved with technobabble

2) Mean forehead aliens remind Voyager she's in a bad neighborhood -> Janeway & Co. have a talk -> high-minded Federation ideals come into question -> just before our ideals are abandoned somebody comes up with some technobabble that Saves the Day.
You forgot after Season 4 there was another option:

3) Seven is either the cause or resolution of a story due to: a. her exploration of humanity; b. nanoprobes or implants; c. vast encyclopedic knowledge of other races; d. her intimate understanding of Borg technology; e. misunderstanding with another race who have bad experience with the Borg.
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Old April 15 2013, 11:16 PM   #231
Melakon
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
. . .blah. . .miniature. . .blah. . .
What about internal? Sets can be dressed to look like they've had the crap kicked out of them over time.
You're right, I was thinking all the criticism was aimed at the outer hull. They did do damaged corridors pretty well, but the janitors must have always gone through before the next episode.
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Old April 15 2013, 11:22 PM   #232
MacLeod
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Well of course it is possible we see sections that have been repaired in the episode. But it comes back to the point is that they were supposed to be low on resources. So surely it's a waste to replicate new wall panels all the time.
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Old April 15 2013, 11:53 PM   #233
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Well of course it is possible we see sections that have been repaired in the episode. But it comes back to the point is that they were supposed to be low on resources. So surely it's a waste to replicate new wall panels all the time.
That's exactly just the thing. How hard would it have been to leave a few burn marks in the corridors a while after major damage happened? I understand UPN wanted an episodic show in the same vein as TOS and TNG, but there still should have been more than just a nod toward continuity now and then. There should have been some evidence that the events of one episode had consequences for the next.
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Old April 15 2013, 11:57 PM   #234
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Yes and you could have a couple of extras in the background repairing various items as our main characters walk past. There are lots of little things they could have done.
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Old April 16 2013, 12:37 AM   #235
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

That was one thing Enterprise did get right. If their ship got damaged, they usually made some effort to show they were fixing it and there was continuity from episode to episode. I like how that alien space station detected that Trip crashed the shuttle into the hull during the pilot.
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Old April 16 2013, 06:32 PM   #236
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

They should've done what Berman wanted, and waited until DS9 was finished before doing VOY. By then, they'd have CGI right from the start instead of models and other shows of a similar nature (LEXX, Farscape) would've already begun to show to the Producers to say "See, this is what we want to do!".

I have no problem with a smaller cast focus. I mean, TOS was all about Kirk, Spock and McCoy and no one cared.

The internal tensions wouldn't have lasted more than a season or a season and a half, especially given how the whole point of the Maquis/Fed conflict was no longer present and neither truly hated the other to continue the conflict.

A major problem was the show not really having a plot beyond "Going Home". It really should have had one. An external plot, I mean.
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Old April 16 2013, 06:48 PM   #237
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

R. Star wrote: View Post
That was one thing Enterprise did get right. If their ship got damaged, they usually made some effort to show they were fixing it and there was continuity from episode to episode. I like how that alien space station detected that Trip crashed the shuttle into the hull during the pilot.
Perhaps part of that was listening to fans complaints about VOY shortcommings in that area.
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Old April 16 2013, 07:09 PM   #238
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

R. Star wrote: View Post
That was one thing Enterprise did get right. If their ship got damaged, they usually made some effort to show they were fixing it and there was continuity from episode to episode. I like how that alien space station detected that Trip crashed the shuttle into the hull during the pilot.
But shows like LEXX, Farscape and Stargate Universe got away without ever having to do constant maintenance on their ships.
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Old April 16 2013, 07:20 PM   #239
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

I'm not saying they should be fixing the ship half of every episode. Just some small bit of continuity. I always hated when the episode ends with the Enterprise or Voyager heavily damaged, but next episode they're right as rain, no explanation doing something different. DS9 did this too very noticeably once with that pylon getting blown off in To the Death. How hard would it have been for DS9 to just use that stock shot they already had of the pylon gone next episode with cleaning up the floating debris just to show hey it isn't instantly fixable?
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Old April 16 2013, 07:26 PM   #240
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

They easily could have left one of the side hallways off the main corridor set with "damage" dressing, which could have been seen during full-length walk-and-talks. One episode I watched had Janeway and Seven start at the far end of the corridor near the cargo bay set, and wind up just outside the unseen engineering set. Either UPN's nosebutting prevented it, or they simply didn't think of it at the time.
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