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Old April 16 2013, 03:26 PM   #301
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Yeah the fundamental problem with the murder charge is that not to do anything would be condemning two colleagues to oblivion, since they aren't dead. Something that can be brought back isn't dead by any definition. If you accept that then you accept that Tuvix isn't dead but separated out into two different people.
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Old April 16 2013, 03:55 PM   #302
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Deckerd wrote: View Post
Yeah the fundamental problem with the murder charge is that not to do anything would be condemning two colleagues to oblivion, since they aren't dead. Something that can be brought back isn't dead by any definition. If you accept that then you accept that Tuvix isn't dead but separated out into two different people.
Except under that assumption Tuvok and Neelix would still be alive even if Tuvix was still around so why exactly couldn't they wait to find a better solution than picking who gets to live and who gets to die?
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Old April 16 2013, 04:08 PM   #303
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Sadara wrote: View Post
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SO much pin-head dancing. I'll say it again: If two of your kids were fused into one being and started crowing about his rights...you wouldn't hesitate for one second to pull the plug and get your kids back.
This. I understand the moral and ethical issue with the whole Tuvix thing, but I don't think I'd be able to write Tuvok and Neelix off as dead if there was a way to get them back. They have the right to have their lives back.
You have to write off words like moral and ethical when you're talking about killing a living sentient being against his will to get them back. Tuvix had as much of a right to exist after the accident happened as Tuvok and Neelix when they came out of the womb.
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Old April 16 2013, 04:13 PM   #304
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I don't think you do. If it's in her power to bring them back, she's ethically obliged to do so.
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Old April 16 2013, 04:18 PM   #305
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Deckerd wrote: View Post
I don't think you do. If it's in her power to bring them back, she's ethically obliged to do so.
Then why didn't Janeway take Neelix's lungs back in Phage again? She gave a long winded speech about how humanity was above that sort of thing.
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Old April 16 2013, 04:39 PM   #306
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Deckerd wrote: View Post
I don't think you do. If it's in her power to bring them back, she's ethically obliged to do so.
So if I could bring a dead person by sacrificing say an 8 year old child I would be ethically obliged to do so because it would be within my power to be able to?
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Old April 16 2013, 04:59 PM   #307
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Deckerd wrote: View Post
I don't think you do. If it's in her power to bring them back, she's ethically obliged to do so.
So if I could bring a dead person by sacrificing say an 8 year old child I would be ethically obliged to do so because it would be within my power to be able to?
Not everyone here agrees that Tuvok and Neelix would be considered dead just like not everyone agrees that they aren't. No matter how you slice it, someone in that episode was going away permanently. Others have already discussed the numbers game. Perhaps Tuvok's family would be more... forgiving of the choice to leave Tuvix as is, but were it my spouse who was left like that when the technology exisited to return two people to their orignal lives, I'd be pissed.

It affects more people than just Tuvix. It would have been interesting to hear Tuvok himself weigh in on it.
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Old April 16 2013, 05:17 PM   #308
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Tuvok and Neelix would still be alive even if Tuvix was still around
No, they wouldn't. They were not conscious within the body of Tuvix. They were effectively "shut down" as long as Tuvix was alive.
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Old April 16 2013, 05:23 PM   #309
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Sadara wrote: View Post
Perhaps Tuvok's family would be more... forgiving of the choice to leave Tuvix as is,
well considering they probably already thought he was dead at the time....

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Tuvok and Neelix would still be alive even if Tuvix was still around
No, they wouldn't. They were not conscious within the body of Tuvix. They were effectively "shut down" as long as Tuvix was alive.
So their dead then?
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Old April 16 2013, 05:32 PM   #310
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Sadara wrote: View Post
Perhaps Tuvok's family would be more... forgiving of the choice to leave Tuvix as is,
well considering they probably already thought he was dead at the time....
So that justifies not bringing Tuvok back?
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Old April 16 2013, 05:47 PM   #311
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Sadara wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Sadara wrote: View Post
Perhaps Tuvok's family would be more... forgiving of the choice to leave Tuvix as is,
well considering they probably already thought he was dead at the time....
So that justifies not bringing Tuvok back?
No just pointing out how that appeal to emotion (which for Vulcan's wouldn't even factor into the decision) doesn't really hold water. Not to mention he's a Starfleet security officer its not like his family wouldn't know there is a pretty damned good chance he could get killed in the line of duty.

The fact that he's already dead is what justifies not bringing Tuvok back.
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Old April 16 2013, 06:07 PM   #312
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Sadara wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

well considering they probably already thought he was dead at the time....
So that justifies not bringing Tuvok back?
No just pointing out how that appeal to emotion (which for Vulcan's wouldn't even factor into the decision) doesn't really hold water. Not to mention he's a Starfleet security officer its not like his family wouldn't know there is a pretty damned good chance he could get killed in the line of duty.

The fact that he's already dead is what justifies not bringing Tuvok back.
They would likely be considered dead if there was no way separate them back into Tuvok and Neelix. There is a way which is what makes this a gray area.
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Old April 16 2013, 07:09 PM   #313
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I don't understand all the anti-abortion themed arguments saying Tuvix must live. In classic sci-fi terminology, Tuvix is a monster. He is not an unborn child. There is a chance that Neelix and Tuvok can be restored. Janeway has an obligation to them to take that chance, however slim it is, to get them back.
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Old April 16 2013, 07:15 PM   #314
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Just because he was brought into being in a manner that's different from us doesn't invalidate his life or give him any less rights than anyone else. Frankly that's a bit disturbing that you so casually remark that just because someone's different they're less of a person. But it's a common theme in humanity to dehumanize anyone to rationalize their death in their mind.
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Old April 16 2013, 07:18 PM   #315
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
Just because he was brought into being in a manner that's different from us doesn't invalidate his life or give him any less rights than anyone else. Frankly that's a bit disturbing that you so casually remark that just because someone's different they're less of a person. But it's a common theme in humanity to dehumanize anyone to rationalize their death in their mind.
I don't think that's the point. If the transporter had put together a sentient monster, would everyone be as willing to defend its right to exist vs. the rights of Tuvok and Neelix?
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