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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old April 15 2013, 04:30 AM   #106
Avro Arrow
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Re: Brannon Braga: Not a Diane Carey Fan?

^ Forgive me for being pedantic, but just to let you know, the Excelsior captain in TSFS was Styles, and presumably unrelated to Lt. Stiles from Balance of Terror.
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Old April 15 2013, 06:45 AM   #107
Therin of Andor
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Re: Brannon Braga: Not a Diane Carey Fan?

TheAlmanac wrote: View Post
To me, that doesn't say much one way or the other about how Carey might feel about Voyager
And I wasn't trying to suggest one way or the other. I simply enjoyed "Fire Ship" very much.

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
On the other hand, Carey's last major creation before Keller, Red Sector's Eric Stiles, was a self-centered asshole.
I often hear this view, but the character appealed to me. Being self-centred made him vulnerable.

I also recall "Challenger"'s Bonifay. A real pain-in-the-neck, but I grew to like him very much - and his cliffhanger fate was... such a no-win scenario.
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Old April 15 2013, 12:54 PM   #108
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Re: Brannon Braga: Not a Diane Carey Fan?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
On the other hand, Carey's last major creation before Keller, Red Sector's Eric Stiles, was a self-centered asshole.
I often hear this view, but the character appealed to me. Being self-centred made him vulnerable.
There was nothing appealing about Eric Stiles.

I laugh because we've had this argument for what? Fifteen years now? We're not budging from our positions, are we?
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Old April 15 2013, 01:29 PM   #109
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Re: Brannon Braga: Not a Diane Carey Fan?

Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
^ Forgive me for being pedantic, but just to let you know, the Excelsior captain in TSFS was Styles, and presumably unrelated to Lt. Stiles from Balance of Terror.
So one branch of the family decided to change the "I" to a "Y" for reasons that aren't clear. They could still be related.
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Old April 15 2013, 01:51 PM   #110
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Re: Brannon Braga: Not a Diane Carey Fan?

tomswift2002 wrote: View Post
Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
^ Forgive me for being pedantic, but just to let you know, the Excelsior captain in TSFS was Styles, and presumably unrelated to Lt. Stiles from Balance of Terror.
So one branch of the family decided to change the "I" to a "Y" for reasons that aren't clear. They could still be related.
No reason to think they are. My last name isn't particularly common, and when I was in high school I had a teacher with the same name (spelled the same, too), but we weren't related.
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Old April 15 2013, 02:17 PM   #111
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Re: Brannon Braga: Not a Diane Carey Fan?

Yes, similar names doesn't denote anything. My surname is incredibly rare, but there's two different spellings of it. I've seen that spelling with an artist who's worked for Marvel, and spoken to one on the phone in my old job in a call centre.

My cousin did some digging and we do all trace back to some Dutch immigrants that came to England to work on dikes. One group went south, one stayed in the North. Even so, I wouldn't class us as related.

Even ignoring that. Think how many Smiths there are.
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Old April 15 2013, 07:24 PM   #112
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Re: Brannon Braga: Not a Diane Carey Fan?

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
We're not budging from our positions, are we?
Not until I read it again, but I just recall the friendship of Stiles and his Romulan colleague, and my enjoyable reading experience at the time - and then walking innocently, as a first-time poster, into the wrath of anti-Carey fans over on Psi Phi.
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Old April 15 2013, 08:36 PM   #113
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Re: Brannon Braga: Not a Diane Carey Fan?

tomswift2002 wrote: View Post
Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
^ Forgive me for being pedantic, but just to let you know, the Excelsior captain in TSFS was Styles, and presumably unrelated to Lt. Stiles from Balance of Terror.
So one branch of the family decided to change the "I" to a "Y" for reasons that aren't clear. They could still be related.
Except that there's no evidence for that whatsoever, other than your assertion that because both Stiles and Styles were jerks, they must be related to each other. If that were the case, then every boss of every job I've ever had must have been related too
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Old April 16 2013, 02:17 AM   #114
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Re: Brannon Braga: Not a Diane Carey Fan?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
this would go a long way towards explaining why a prolific Trek novelist would suddenly stop producing new novels.
IIRC, she stopped writing ST novels to dabble in local politics?
Quite possibly that's what she did after she stopped writing Star Trek novels. It is curious, though, that she abruptly stopped writing Star Trek novels after Broken Bow came out. This is especially so since she seems to have been on the verge of starting a new novel-only series, Challenger, that was apparently already plotted out. Despite this, it all came to a halt.

The OP put forward a compelling explanation: Carey's style of writing, which could be seen as slighting non-TOS series, got her in trouble when she novelized the Enterprise series premier. By their own words, the producers of Enterprise noted her novelization, took offense, and complained to Pocket Books. One states that she was reprimanded. Subsequently, Carey hasn't had published any Star Trek titles, including titles that she seems to have plotted out.

Use of Time wrote: View Post
If you want to see novelizations done right than you'll have to go back to Vonda McIntyre's work with the three movie saga. (TWOK, TSFS, TVH) Those are the only novelizations I personally have found memorable.
If you noticed, Vonda McIntyre had a falling out with Richard Arnold on the ST IV novelization; it was one of the first books that Roddenberry got him to vet rather than Susan Sackett, IIRC. RA hated the authors adding new material and would mention it at conventions. You can see that, after the sequence with the San Francisco trash collectors (McIntyre makes their lines quotes from a Hollywood script they're writing together), she totally stops adding additional material for the rest of the book. It was also her last book for "Star Trek".
A pity. This explains the large gap between Rihannsu novels, too, right?

Christopher wrote: View Post
TheAlmanac wrote: View Post
This entire thread is speculation about another person's motives--we're all trying to infer someone's feelings based mostly on textual evidence and an interview with someone else.
Yes, and that's why we should take it all with a grain of salt and not get carried away with our conclusions.
Because I'm not plugged into fandom at all, I have to ask what explanations if any there were for Carey's absence from Treklit.

Dukhat wrote: View Post
[T]here's no evidence for that whatsoever, other than your assertion that because both Stiles and Styles were jerks, they must be related to each other. If that were the case, then every boss of every job I've ever had must have been related too
Indeed. My personal experience as a McDonald is that I'm not closely related to MacDonalds at all--different transliterations from the Gaelic, sure, but also different origins behind these different spellings.
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Old April 16 2013, 03:22 AM   #115
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Re: Brannon Braga: Not a Diane Carey Fan?

rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
this would go a long way towards explaining why a prolific Trek novelist would suddenly stop producing new novels.
IIRC, she stopped writing ST novels to dabble in local politics?
Quite possibly that's what she did after she stopped writing Star Trek novels. It is curious, though, that she abruptly stopped writing Star Trek novels after Broken Bow came out. This is especially so since she seems to have been on the verge of starting a new novel-only series, Challenger, that was apparently already plotted out. Despite this, it all came to a halt.

The OP put forward a compelling explanation: Carey's style of writing, which could be seen as slighting non-TOS series, got her in trouble when she novelized the Enterprise series premier. By their own words, the producers of Enterprise noted her novelization, took offense, and complained to Pocket Books. One states that she was reprimanded. Subsequently, Carey hasn't had published any Star Trek titles, including titles that she seems to have plotted out.
IIRC, the reason Challenger died was because no one bought the one standalone book in the Gateways series. And to be brutally honest, branding it as Challenger instead of New Earth wasn't the best idea, especially when the debut novel is in a major crossover event. At least New Earth would've had some brand exposure at the time.

The lack of an ending in the book (and the eventual ending) probably hurt Challenger a lot too.
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Old April 16 2013, 04:10 AM   #116
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Re: Brannon Braga: Not a Diane Carey Fan?

rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
This is especially so since she seems to have been on the verge of starting a new novel-only series, Challenger, that was apparently already plotted out. Despite this, it all came to a halt.
That's misunderstanding how this works. The series was never guaranteed to exist. It got a "pilot" as part of New Earth, and because the timing was right, they included it as part of the following year's Gateways crossover to give it a further push, but those were just tryouts. In order to go beyond that, the first two books had to sell strongly enough to justify doing more. And evidently they didn't.


A pity. This explains the large gap between Rihannsu novels, too, right?
No; Diane Duane did write other Trek novels during the Arnold era. The reason the Rihannsu books weren't continued is because TNG's depiction of the Romulans overwrote them. They didn't fit canon anymore. When Swordhunt was originally published (in two volumes), it carried a disclaimer making it clear that it was revisiting an old, alternative take on Trek continuity.
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Old April 16 2013, 05:03 AM   #117
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Re: Brannon Braga: Not a Diane Carey Fan?

Christopher wrote: View Post
rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
This is especially so since she seems to have been on the verge of starting a new novel-only series, Challenger, that was apparently already plotted out. Despite this, it all came to a halt.
That's misunderstanding how this works. The series was never guaranteed to exist. It got a "pilot" as part of New Earth, and because the timing was right, they included it as part of the following year's Gateways crossover to give it a further push, but those were just tryouts. In order to go beyond that, the first two books had to sell strongly enough to justify doing more. And evidently they didn't.
I stand corrected.

This still leaves open the question of the reprimand mentioned by Braga. Did it happen? Did it influence the course of Carey's writing career? It's not unimaginable.

A pity. This explains the large gap between Rihannsu novels, too, right?
No; Diane Duane did write other Trek novels during the Arnold era.
I meant the Rihannsu novels. I'm aware of Duane's other Trek novels in this period, even having started discussion threads on Dark Mirror and Intellivore.
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Old April 16 2013, 01:55 PM   #118
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Re: Brannon Braga: Not a Diane Carey Fan?

^Yes, I know what you meant, but what I meant was that if Duane had had the kind of "falling out" with Arnold that was described with McIntyre, then presumably Duane would no longer have written any novels after that point. But she did write several more novels, just toned down and more homogenized, without the overt "Duaneverse" content. Which proves that she was able and willing to work within the restrictions of the Arnold era, and that no falling out occurred.
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Old April 16 2013, 03:04 PM   #119
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Re: Brannon Braga: Not a Diane Carey Fan?

rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
A pity. This explains the large gap between Rihannsu novels, too, right?
Actually, the reason there is simpler. Richard Arnold was irked by The Romulan Way and made no secret of it. Here's some of the history behind that.

Essentially, Arnold claimed that The Romulan Way was an unsold original novel that Duane had in her files that she added a Romulan plot to in order to sell it as a Star Trek novel.

For balance, this is Arnold's response to Duane's version of events vis-a-vis The Romulan Way.

It does strike me as odd that she continued to write Star Trek fiction during Arnold's reign of terror, including Spock's World which drew heavily on The Romulan Way. I guess we'll never know the reasons.

bullethead wrote: View Post
IIRC, the reason Challenger died was because no one bought the one standalone book in the Gateways series. And to be brutally honest, branding it as Challenger instead of New Earth wasn't the best idea, especially when the debut novel is in a major crossover event. At least New Earth would've had some brand exposure at the time.
As far as I know, Chainmail sold no worse than any other book in the Gateways series.

I'm doubtful that sales are the reason there was no ongoing Challenger series.
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Old April 17 2013, 05:11 AM   #120
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Re: Brannon Braga: Not a Diane Carey Fan?

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
Richard Arnold was irked by The Romulan Way and made no secret of it.
His loss. I loved the book and it fit very well in the Trek universe. Her take on the Romulans beat the hell out of how they were portrayed in later Trek.
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