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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old April 15 2013, 09:48 PM   #46
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

DonIago wrote: View Post
I'm not sure what you're talking about with regards to committing suicide.
Dominion ships carpet bombing whatever planet they settles on, legion of Jem'Hadar troops over running them and slaughtering them, you know the stuff the Dominion does when they get pissy especially after the Son'a's new fed friends some of whom are probably over in Section 31 decided to make the Founders even more pissy by infecting them with a plague that was going to kill them, lets just ask the Cardassians how the Dominion taken betrayal when their near psychotic.

sonak wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
While it's obvious the Son'a weren't entirely upfront with the Feds, I don't think there's any hard evidence indicating that they wouldn't have gone through with the deal.
The fact that Ru'afo went to let's kill them all the moment things went south for him especially after his response to Picard investigating stuff was to threaten to destroy his ship the man was a bully and a psychotic man child one at that.

exactly. Using the "Son'a were going to betray them" or a "the process wouldn't have worked anyway" argument are both ways of avoiding the actual issues in the film by substituting arguments for which there is no evidence.
As opposed to your butchering Emanate Domain laws into imperialist rhetoric to suit yours.

Again, the Son'a were NOT Dominion allies, they were merely selling them drugs,
Which they need to run their army

just as I'm sure they'd have been happy to sell weapons to the Federation.
Until the Jem'Hadar kill them after crushing the federation or before that since depending on when the film takes place the Dominion has the federation out matched in every way that matters until the conned the Romulans into helping them.


Besides the Romulans were letting the Dominion use their space to attack the federation but they sure weren't helping the federation with anything. hell Vreenak even seemed gleeful about their emanate destruction

Not to mention the Son'a DON'T LIKE THEM so they aren't going to help them. Didn't you get that from the umpteenth time Ru'afo bitched about how much he hates how they do stuff.

They only became Dominion allies after Picard betrayed the agreement and fought against them, at which point, why WOULDN'T they have become Dominion allies?
why would they become federation allies even if the particle extraction had gone well?
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Old April 15 2013, 10:27 PM   #47
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Profit. Self interest.
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Old April 15 2013, 10:47 PM   #48
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Vasquez Rocks wrote: View Post
The Son'a didn't want to live on the planet or be anywhere near the Briar Patch. They wanted to be immortal, but not tied to the planet for that benefit.
What are you basing that on? The dialogue suggested that the Son'a started a rebellion to take over Ba'ku society in the past and then lost and the Ba'ku expelled them from their society. Why would they rebel if they wanted to leave the planet? So why didn't they just create a city with all the tech they want on the other side of the planet? Heck why did the Ba'ku win in the first place if they are Luddite pacifists and the Son'a were more aggressive and more technologically savvy?

The problem is the Son'a/Ba'ku past conflict is such a underdeveloped plot point, that the current Son'a/Ba'ku conflict is underdeveloped as well.

I would say the story would have made more sense if the Son'a were random evil invader with no connection to the Ba'ku, who just wanted to be immortal. That would be less convoluted.
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Old April 15 2013, 10:51 PM   #49
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
Profit.
They would get more profit from killing all the federation personal, taking the particles, and leaving before the federation finds out they got hosed as they would have all the particles and would have to share them.

Self interest.
If its before the Romulans joined that war, screwing over the federation and sucking up to the Dominion WOULD be in their self interest.
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Old April 15 2013, 11:42 PM   #50
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Face Ru'afo was probably going to keep the particles and kill all the Starfleet personal then go back to helping the Dominion pound the federation's face into the ground.
Then why did the Sona bring the Federation into the matter in the first place?

It makes no sense to say the Federation approached the Sona. Most likely the Sona approached the Federation Council because they knew that the Federation claimed that area of space, and the Sona wanted no long term problems with the Federation. Whatever military forces the Sona had, it would have be dwarfed by Starfleet. So the Sona couldn't just go into and remove the Federation's natural resources, and except to get away with it.

Far from the Sona getting fifty percent of the harvested particles, their side of the bargain would have been something like one or two percent. The Sona really wouldn't have needed very much for their personal use, my impression is the Sona didn't exist in large numbers.

sonak wrote: View Post
Again, the Son'a were NOT Dominion allies, they were merely selling them drugs
Which they need to run their army
Which makes them suppliers, not "allies."

Not to mention the Son'a DON'T LIKE THEM so they aren't going to help them.
You don't have to like people to do business with them. The Sona were perfectly willing to be business partners with the Federation, if it meant getting access to the particles around a Federation planet.

They would get more profit from killing all the federation personal, taking the particles, and leaving before the federation finds out they got hosed as they would have all the particles and would have to share them.
And the fact the Sona didn't do this, suggest that the Sona in someway couldn't.
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Old April 15 2013, 11:49 PM   #51
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

T'Girl wrote: View Post
They would get more profit from killing all the federation personal, taking the particles, and leaving before the federation finds out they got hosed as they would have all the particles and would have to share them.
And the fact the Sona didn't do this, ....
Was becuase Picard stopped Ru'afo.
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Old April 16 2013, 12:19 AM   #52
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
They would get more profit from killing all the federation personal, taking the particles, and leaving before the federation finds out they got hosed as they would have all the particles and would have to share them.
And the fact the Sona didn't do this, ....
Was becuase Picard stopped Ru'afo.

as long as we're just making stuff up out of the blue, I think it's good that Picard managed to persuade the Baku offscreen to give up their lifestyle of cannibalism and slavery or it would have been awkward to have been seen intervening on their behalf.
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Old April 16 2013, 12:28 AM   #53
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

sonak wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
And the fact the Sona didn't do this, ....
Was becuase Picard stopped Ru'afo.

as long as we're just making stuff up out of the blue,
How is that making stuff up. Ru'afo had all the federation personal moved where the collector going off would kill them after murdering Dougherty. Then he was stopped by being beamed to the holoship by his formerly loyal right hand man who's name I forgot after Picard verbally bitchslaped his ass and then all the stuff on the Collector happened.

Seriously where do I get this over version of the movie you people are watching.
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Old April 16 2013, 12:36 AM   #54
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

Was becuase Picard stopped Ru'afo.

as long as we're just making stuff up out of the blue,
How is that making stuff up. Ru'afo had all the federation personal moved where the collector going off would kill them after murdering Dougherty. Then he was stopped by being beamed to the holoship by his formerly loyal right hand man who's name I forgot after Picard verbally bitchslaped his ass and then all the stuff on the Collector happened.

Seriously where do I get this over version of the movie you people are watching.

he did this all after Picard essentially started a WAR with the Son'a. I don't deny that stuff happened AFTER Picard's intervention, I'm saying that you can't use that to argue backwards to say Ru'afo was always going to betray the Federation.

There is NOTHING in the movie to support that, and a lot to disprove it-Ru'afo was very friendly toward Dougherty, having dinner with him, offering him the services of the Son'a skin-whatever treatment, etc. He showed patience when Data went rogue in allowing Picard to get him himself.

Ru'afo only turned decisively to violence AFTER Picard launched his little "insurrection," at which point it was a battle.
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Old April 16 2013, 12:49 AM   #55
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

The Overlord wrote: View Post
Vasquez Rocks wrote: View Post
The Son'a didn't want to live on the planet or be anywhere near the Briar Patch. They wanted to be immortal, but not tied to the planet for that benefit.
What are you basing that on?
The Ready Room scene between Picard and Dougherty.

Admiral Dougherty: It would take ten years of normal exposure to begin to reverse their condition. Some of them won't survive that long. Besides, they don't want to live in the middle of the Briar Patch. Who would?
Jean-Luc Picard: The Ba'ku.
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Old April 16 2013, 12:51 AM   #56
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

sonak wrote: View Post
Ru'afo only turned decisively to violence AFTER Picard launched his little "insurrection," at which point it was a battle.
Gotta agree with sonak here. You can't say Ru'afo was always going to betray the Federation because the had the audacity to fight back. Sure he most definitely escalated things once Picard picked the fight, but by all accounts he seemed to be willing to work with Dougherty and the Federation until Picard forced the confrontation.
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Old April 16 2013, 10:35 AM   #57
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

sonak wrote:
I'm saying that you can't use that to argue backwards to say Ru'afo was always going to betray the Federation.
No, but I can speculate that it could happen seeing as Ru'afo threatened to blow up the Enterprise and the Son'a had no problem shooting Data just for finding the holoship, or the fact that the Riker just going to bitch at the Federation was what Ru'afo thought was enough provocation to attack the federation flagship with the intent to destroy it.
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Old April 16 2013, 10:59 AM   #58
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

sonak wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post


as long as we're just making stuff up out of the blue,
How is that making stuff up. Ru'afo had all the federation personal moved where the collector going off would kill them after murdering Dougherty. Then he was stopped by being beamed to the holoship by his formerly loyal right hand man who's name I forgot after Picard verbally bitchslaped his ass and then all the stuff on the Collector happened.

Seriously where do I get this over version of the movie you people are watching.

he did this all after Picard essentially started a WAR with the Son'a. I don't deny that stuff happened AFTER Picard's intervention, I'm saying that you can't use that to argue backwards to say Ru'afo was always going to betray the Federation.

There is NOTHING in the movie to support that, and a lot to disprove it-Ru'afo was very friendly toward Dougherty, having dinner with him, offering him the services of the Son'a skin-whatever treatment, etc. He showed patience when Data went rogue in allowing Picard to get him himself.

Ru'afo only turned decisively to violence AFTER Picard launched his little "insurrection," at which point it was a battle.
Picard hardly staarted a war with the Son'a unless you call making the Baku leave their village starting a war. To himn what he saw was morally wrong and he set out to try and save the Baku, so yes I'd say he did the right thing.
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Old April 16 2013, 01:07 PM   #59
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

DWF wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

How is that making stuff up. Ru'afo had all the federation personal moved where the collector going off would kill them after murdering Dougherty. Then he was stopped by being beamed to the holoship by his formerly loyal right hand man who's name I forgot after Picard verbally bitchslaped his ass and then all the stuff on the Collector happened.

Seriously where do I get this over version of the movie you people are watching.

he did this all after Picard essentially started a WAR with the Son'a. I don't deny that stuff happened AFTER Picard's intervention, I'm saying that you can't use that to argue backwards to say Ru'afo was always going to betray the Federation.

There is NOTHING in the movie to support that, and a lot to disprove it-Ru'afo was very friendly toward Dougherty, having dinner with him, offering him the services of the Son'a skin-whatever treatment, etc. He showed patience when Data went rogue in allowing Picard to get him himself.

Ru'afo only turned decisively to violence AFTER Picard launched his little "insurrection," at which point it was a battle.
Picard hardly staarted a war with the Son'a unless you call making the Baku leave their village starting a war. To himn what he saw was morally wrong and he set out to try and save the Baku, so yes I'd say he did the right thing.
Plus really all he did was shoot some drones and hide people in caves. The Son'a were the ones who started shooting with the whole basically bombing the caves and shooting at people.
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Old April 16 2013, 01:59 PM   #60
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote:
I'm saying that you can't use that to argue backwards to say Ru'afo was always going to betray the Federation.
No, but I can speculate that it could happen seeing as Ru'afo threatened to blow up the Enterprise and the Son'a had no problem shooting Data just for finding the holoship, or the fact that the Riker just going to bitch at the Federation was what Ru'afo thought was enough provocation to attack the federation flagship with the intent to destroy it.
Ru'afo threatened to blow up the Enterprise only -after- Picard refused to release his people. The shooting Data bit for finding the holoship is a bit ambiguous as we never actually saw the events that occurred. If I had to guess it was because Data declared he was going to reveal it to everyone and compromise the whole operation. As for attacking the Enterprise, even then Ru'afo talked Dougherty into signing off on it when he had all the cards and didn't have to. Hardly the actions of a guy planning to betray the whole Federation.

Really the most villainous thing Ru'afo did the first freaking half of the movie was bleed on Picard's ready room carpet.
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