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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old April 14 2013, 12:49 AM   #31
OneBuckFilms
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

The Overlord wrote: View Post
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I don't think the Baku are asses at all. That planet is their home, and has been for a long time. They have as much right to live in their home as you do yours.

I'm sure they would be amenable to the rings being studied, and might be willing to provide insights into it, were it not for the Sona.

If I were being kicked out of my home of hundreds of years, I'd be "an ass" too.
So it is wrong for the Son'a to use force to remove the Ba'ku from their homes, but its okay for the Ba'ku to use force to remove the Son'a from the planet? The whole story is based on a bunch of plot holes, the Ba'ku were a bunch of tech hating pacifistic, how did the Son'a lose to them in the first place? Why didn't the Son'a just establish another colony on the planet after losing the Ba'ku? Frankly the Son'a being random evil alien invaders who were just selfish and wanted to be immortal would have made more sense then them being Ba'ku.
The Son'a gave up their right to live there by trying to take over.
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Old April 14 2013, 02:18 AM   #32
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

I wonder how much of the dispute over this movie emerges from genuine issues with the scenario and how much is due to flaws with the structure of the film itself (i.e. it fails to address points that should have been reasonably brought up).

Whether or not the Son'a forfeited their right to live on the planet, by the time they returned they were a dying people. From that perspective, I feel a compassionate race could offer to let them inhabit some portion of the planet...especially a compassionate race consisting of 600 members.

Not all that dissimilar from how Khan's people may have been reasonable if Khan hadn't been batshit crazy and obsessed with wreaking vengeance on Kirk at all costs.
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Old April 14 2013, 02:51 AM   #33
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

They never asked, frankly. And at the end, there was a reconciliation with at least one Son'a.

That, right there, tells me the Son'a exile was likely extended by Ruafu's stubbornness and greed, and they might well have been allowed to return and make amends.
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Old April 14 2013, 03:22 AM   #34
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

the premise was rather poorly thought out-possibly the most poorly thought out of all of the Trek movies.

-A small village of non-technological pacifists somehow defeats a group of technology-embracing rebel militants. How? We don't know.
-for some reason, the Son'a agree to go into exile. They build a respectable empire, but never return to conquer the Baku and retake the planet.
-the central "dilemma" of the movie shouldn't exist-if the planet's legally a Federation planet, then the scenario's no different than "journey's end," and there's no reason for Picard to interfere. If it's NOT, then the Son'a were free to go in anytime to retake the planet themselves. Ru'afo didn't need the Federation at all.
-Ru'afo decides to deceive Dougherty about the Baku, making the whole situation harder. Even after Picard and Dougherty both learn that the Baku aren't primitives, neither simply suggests negotiating with the Baku and explaining the situation.


It's a stupid premise that falls apart when exposed to logic, and it's why the movie doesn't lend itself IMHO to a lot of re-watch value.
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Old April 14 2013, 04:29 AM   #35
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

sonak wrote: View Post
the premise was rather poorly thought out-possibly the most poorly thought out of all of the Trek movies.

-A small village of non-technological pacifists somehow defeats a group of technology-embracing rebel militants. How? We don't know.
-for some reason, the Son'a agree to go into exile. They build a respectable empire, but never return to conquer the Baku and retake the planet.
-the central "dilemma" of the movie shouldn't exist-if the planet's legally a Federation planet, then the scenario's no different than "journey's end," and there's no reason for Picard to interfere. If it's NOT, then the Son'a were free to go in anytime to retake the planet themselves. Ru'afo didn't need the Federation at all.
-Ru'afo decides to deceive Dougherty about the Baku, making the whole situation harder. Even after Picard and Dougherty both learn that the Baku aren't primitives, neither simply suggests negotiating with the Baku and explaining the situation.


It's a stupid premise that falls apart when exposed to logic, and it's why the movie doesn't lend itself IMHO to a lot of re-watch value.
This is one of the reaons I liked the original idea. Especially since the moral dilemma wasn't going to mean crap anyway. I mean does anyone really think the Federation was going to actually get their hands on the fountain of youth? That would be too much of a game changer for the people running trek at the time. Hell they weren't even allowed to keep Genesis for peat's sake and that time they didn't even need to worry about two spin offs that were running at the time.
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Old April 14 2013, 04:59 AM   #36
sonak
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
the premise was rather poorly thought out-possibly the most poorly thought out of all of the Trek movies.

-A small village of non-technological pacifists somehow defeats a group of technology-embracing rebel militants. How? We don't know.
-for some reason, the Son'a agree to go into exile. They build a respectable empire, but never return to conquer the Baku and retake the planet.
-the central "dilemma" of the movie shouldn't exist-if the planet's legally a Federation planet, then the scenario's no different than "journey's end," and there's no reason for Picard to interfere. If it's NOT, then the Son'a were free to go in anytime to retake the planet themselves. Ru'afo didn't need the Federation at all.
-Ru'afo decides to deceive Dougherty about the Baku, making the whole situation harder. Even after Picard and Dougherty both learn that the Baku aren't primitives, neither simply suggests negotiating with the Baku and explaining the situation.


It's a stupid premise that falls apart when exposed to logic, and it's why the movie doesn't lend itself IMHO to a lot of re-watch value.
This is one of the reaons I liked the original idea. Especially since the moral dilemma wasn't going to mean crap anyway. I mean does anyone really think the Federation was going to actually get their hands on the fountain of youth? That would be too much of a game changer for the people running trek at the time. Hell they weren't even allowed to keep Genesis for peat's sake and that time they didn't even need to worry about two spin offs that were running at the time.

I remember thinking that the original premise was good, but what was it again? Something about a rogue admiral down on the planet with the inhabitants or something?
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Old April 14 2013, 05:15 AM   #37
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Yeah, why wouldn't they be willing to talk to someone who was kind of spying on them and was going to kidnap them in their sleep and was still planing to go through with it even after the plan was exposed?.
Because the hundreds of billions of people the radiation would help didn't spy on them.

Because the hundreds of billions of people the radiation would help didn't try to kidnap them.




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Old April 14 2013, 05:33 AM   #38
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

The radiation for the planet was making them all act crazy.

Riker shaving his beard.

Beverly and Deanna talking about their boobs in public.

Picard thinking he was in Die Hard movie.
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Old April 15 2013, 04:12 PM   #39
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

It even effected Data... unless you think randomly shooting at ships, even when they identify themselves and try talking to you is revering to a pure state of ethics.
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Old April 15 2013, 05:34 PM   #40
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Yeah, why wouldn't they be willing to talk to someone who was kind of spying on them and was going to kidnap them in their sleep and was still planing to go through with it even after the plan was exposed?.
[I]Because the hundreds of billions of people the radiation would help didn't spy on them.

Because the hundreds of billions of people the radiation would help didn't try to kidnap them.
No just the people that would be doing any negotiating.

R. Star wrote: View Post
It even effected Data... unless you think randomly shooting at ships, even when they identify themselves and try talking to you is revering to a pure state of ethics.
Well thats what happens when crazy drug dealing illegal WMD using guys who are probably just stringing the federation along shoot androids built by eccentric guys stuff like this happens.
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Old April 15 2013, 05:56 PM   #41
sonak
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Yeah, why wouldn't they be willing to talk to someone who was kind of spying on them and was going to kidnap them in their sleep and was still planing to go through with it even after the plan was exposed?.
[I]Because the hundreds of billions of people the radiation would help didn't spy on them.

Because the hundreds of billions of people the radiation would help didn't try to kidnap them.
No just the people that would be doing any negotiating.

R. Star wrote: View Post
It even effected Data... unless you think randomly shooting at ships, even when they identify themselves and try talking to you is revering to a pure state of ethics.
Well thats what happens when crazy drug dealing illegal WMD using guys who are probably just stringing the federation along shoot androids built by eccentric guys stuff like this happens.
there's no indication that the Son'a are crazy or that they're stringing the federation along. There's every indication that they'd have kept to their part of the deal had Picard not betrayed them.
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Old April 15 2013, 06:03 PM   #42
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

sonak wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
[I]Because the hundreds of billions of people the radiation would help didn't spy on them.

Because the hundreds of billions of people the radiation would help didn't try to kidnap them.
No just the people that would be doing any negotiating.

R. Star wrote: View Post
It even effected Data... unless you think randomly shooting at ships, even when they identify themselves and try talking to you is revering to a pure state of ethics.
Well thats what happens when crazy drug dealing illegal WMD using guys who are probably just stringing the federation along shoot androids built by eccentric guys stuff like this happens.
there's no indication that the Son'a are crazy or that they're stringing the federation along. There's every indication that they'd have kept to their part of the deal had Picard not betrayed them.
Yeah becuase the potential Dominion allies are going to commit suicide just for a fountain of youth that wouldn't help them against the vengeful Dominion and to be friends with a federation they don't even like. Face Ru'afo was probably going to keep the particles and kill all the Starfleet personal then go back to helping the Dominion pound the federation's face into the ground.
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Old April 15 2013, 06:48 PM   #43
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

While it's obvious the Son'a weren't entirely upfront with the Feds, I don't think there's any hard evidence indicating that they wouldn't have gone through with the deal.

I'm not sure what you're talking about with regards to committing suicide. The Son'a and Feds were probably going to split the particles evenly between them.
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Old April 15 2013, 07:01 PM   #44
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

The Feds were likely going to compensate the Son'a, and distribute the particles "for the greater good".

It was a business partnership from that point of view.

Of course, the Son'a (or more specifically Ruafu) were primarily looking to do to the Baku what they percieved to have been done to them. Simple revenge, inadvertantly aided by the Federation.
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Old April 15 2013, 09:34 PM   #45
sonak
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

DonIago wrote: View Post
While it's obvious the Son'a weren't entirely upfront with the Feds, I don't think there's any hard evidence indicating that they wouldn't have gone through with the deal.

I'm not sure what you're talking about with regards to committing suicide. The Son'a and Feds were probably going to split the particles evenly between them.

exactly. Using the "Son'a were going to betray them" or a "the process wouldn't have worked anyway" argument are both ways of avoiding the actual issues in the film by substituting arguments for which there is no evidence.

Again, the Son'a were NOT Dominion allies, they were merely selling them drugs, just as I'm sure they'd have been happy to sell weapons to the Federation. They only became Dominion allies after Picard betrayed the agreement and fought against them, at which point, why WOULDN'T they have become Dominion allies?
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