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Old April 14 2013, 06:31 PM   #46
cultcross
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

DarthPipes wrote: View Post
Really? Someone is going to put any weight into the words of Russell Brand? And a couple of punk rockers?
Worth reading the words people actually write rather than dismissing them because of the author. Brand's piece is remarkably insightful.
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Old April 14 2013, 06:58 PM   #47
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

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Ok, so I got that wrong. But a tax on which everyone pays the same can't be said to be unfair.
It absolutely can. Consider the flat rate as a percentage of income, for example. Those earning the least are paying the highest percentage of their income.

It's also true that poorer families tend to have more people living under the same roof (on account of being poor). So four cohabiting adults in Council housing would pay four times the amount that some elderly spinster in a multi-million pound house would pay.

Generally no matter the value of the property in which you live, you as a person still get the same provision of services from your local government. With the community charge the idea is that each adult paid the same amount for the same level of service provision. With the rates based system someone living in £100 000 house pays less than someone living in a £250 000 house. So the person living in the more expensive house pays more, yet recieves no extra service provision. Now you can argue that this is redistibution of wealth.
I call it asking more of those who can give more and asking less of those who can't give as much.
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Old April 14 2013, 07:03 PM   #48
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

Thanks to this thread, I have now a completely different opinion about Russell Brand. I liked him before actually, but now that I've read things he's written and seen a couple of interviews of him, he strikes me as being a particularly bright and articulate man, one that can talk faster than most people think. The man's a national treasure and I think it's time for our British friends to forgive him for the long hair and the high-pitched voice.
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Old April 14 2013, 07:41 PM   #49
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

those aren't the reasons people dislike him. for every profound and insightful thing he says, he does or says something obnoxious or stupid.
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Old April 14 2013, 07:45 PM   #50
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

junxon wrote: View Post
those aren't the reasons people dislike him
Actually I think those are the reasons why some people don't like him. Others have equally vapid and vacuous reasons of their own, and I'm pretty sure a minority of people have genuinely relevant reasons to dislike him. That being said, there are many very real reasons to like him or at least to tolerate him, and that's what I wanted to underline.

for every profound and insightful thing he says, he does or says something obnoxious or stupid.
Never in my life have I met anyone who would not fit that description.
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Old April 14 2013, 08:47 PM   #51
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
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^ Um, you realize that without her, or the much needed reforms, you'd be on par with Paraguay now? Thankfully, the UK now has a 7.8 percent unemployment rate. Greece has a 27 or 28 percent unemployment rate.


Great Britain was the sick man of Europe, and all of Europe was sick. France, Germany, and most of the rest of it were also suffering huge drops in per-capita GDP
I don't know about Germany, but France were as deep in it as we were, and managed to get to where France along with Germany are pretty much the dominant economic powers of Europe.

Without Thatcherism and ripping the heart, compassion and industrial infrastructure out of the country.

We don't make anything now. We are a nationwide call centre awaiting being outsourced to India...
We manufacture as much as France apparently, and frankly I wouldn't hold France up as a model of efficiency. Riven with strikes, high youth unemployment and in many respects crying out for the kind of radical reform the UK had...plus Hollande has recently proven than taxing the rich to high heaven doesn't actually work.

As for Germany, well the Germans live frugally, they don't earn as much as many other Europeans and don't get into as much debt, most haven't had a pay rise for many years...that'd go down a storm here wouldn't it!

As for call centres, I've worked in several, I've never been down t'pit but frankly I know which job I'd prefer!

Anyway this is interesting... FactCheck: the Thatcher myths and this isn't the Mail or the Telegraph or Fox News this is channel 4.

Not that it matters, people have been storing up vitriol for so many years that I don't think many of them care what's true (and I wouldn't deny a lot of it is) and what isn't.

I think the best verdict on Thatcher comes from Andrew Marr.

"She wanted to remoralize society, creating a nation whose Victorian values were expressed through secure marriages, self reliance and savings, restrain, good neighbourliness, hard work...Yet Thatcherism heralded an age of unparallelled consumption credit, show off wealth, quick bucks and sexual liberation.That is the thing about freedom. when you free people, you can never be sure what you are freeing them for."

I kinda suspect she wanted us to behave like the Germans!
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Old April 15 2013, 12:29 AM   #52
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

DarthPipes wrote: View Post

Reagan and Thatcher were great leaders, the likes of which we sadly won't see again.
If we're lucky.
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Old April 15 2013, 12:54 AM   #53
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

DarthPipes wrote: View Post
Reagan and Thatcher were great leaders, the likes of which we sadly won't see again.
Very true.

As for all the "ding dong the witch is dead" nonsense and the like, during her lifetime, Mrs. Thatcher took that and worse all in stride:
  • Her former speechwriter John O’Sullivan recalls how, some years after leaving office, she arrived to address a small group at an English seaside resort to be greeted by enraged lefties chanting “Thatcher Thatcher Thatcher! Fascist fascist fascist!” She turned to her aide and cooed, “Oh, doesn’t it make you feel nostalgic?”

    She was said to be delighted to hear that a concession stand at last year’s Trades Union Congress was doing a brisk business in “Thatcher Death Party Packs,” almost a quarter-century after her departure from office.

Like any real adult she understood that children, and the childish, when they don't get their way, will act out. They'll cry "it isn't fair," scream about how they "hate" you and wish you were dead.
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Old April 15 2013, 10:39 AM   #54
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

They should have had Straight to Hell for the single Mick Jones needs the cash more.
We don't make anything in the UK anymore because of Thatcher
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Old April 15 2013, 11:04 AM   #55
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

stoneroses wrote: View Post
They should have had Straight to Hell for the single Mick Jones needs the cash more.
We don't make anything in the UK anymore because of Thatcher
Can you provide some factual information confirming that the UK now has zero manufacturing?

From the Guardian:

Perceived wisdom is also that manufacturing disappeared under Thatcher. If so, it was something that had already started. In 1970, manufacturing accounted for 20.57% of UK GDP. By 1979 that was down to 17.62% of GDP. By the time she left office, that decline had continued - albeit at a slightly slower pace, down to 15.18%. Now it is much lower, according to the ONS - down to 9.68% in 2010
So whilst manufacturing delined during her time in office, it actually declined more in the 9 years before she came to office.
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Old April 15 2013, 01:05 PM   #56
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

yousirname wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
Ok, so I got that wrong. But a tax on which everyone pays the same can't be said to be unfair.
It absolutely can. Consider the flat rate as a percentage of income, for example. Those earning the least are paying the highest percentage of their income.

It's also true that poorer families tend to have more people living under the same roof (on account of being poor). So four cohabiting adults in Council housing would pay four times the amount that some elderly spinster in a multi-million pound house would pay.

Generally no matter the value of the property in which you live, you as a person still get the same provision of services from your local government. With the community charge the idea is that each adult paid the same amount for the same level of service provision. With the rates based system someone living in £100 000 house pays less than someone living in a £250 000 house. So the person living in the more expensive house pays more, yet recieves no extra service provision. Now you can argue that this is redistibution of wealth.
I call it asking more of those who can give more and asking less of those who can't give as much.
Yes but from a rates point of view a person on say £100 000 living in a £100 000 house would pay the same as someone earning £25 000. living in a £100 000. There is no redistribution of wealth from that. If you wanted to go along an ability to pay form of rates. Then you go down the route of % of income.
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Old April 15 2013, 01:20 PM   #57
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Yes but from a rates point of view a person on say £100 000 living in a £100 000 house would pay the same as someone earning £25 000. living in a £100 000. There is no redistribution of wealth from that. If you wanted to go along an ability to pay form of rates. Then you go down the route of % of income.
Yeah, the rates had their own problems, but I'm not sure there are too many penniless people living in incredibly high-priced houses. Seems like an issue that would have affected far fewer people.
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Old April 15 2013, 01:30 PM   #58
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

Both the Poll Tax and Council tax are hideously flawed systems. Poll Tax because it wasn't progressive, and Council Tax because it attempts to be progressive but by using the most absurd measure of one's wealth they could come up with.
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Old April 15 2013, 02:48 PM   #59
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
gturner wrote: View Post
^ Um, you realize that without her, or the much needed reforms, you'd be on par with Paraguay now? Thankfully, the UK now has a 7.8 percent unemployment rate. Greece has a 27 or 28 percent unemployment rate.


Great Britain was the sick man of Europe, and all of Europe was sick. France, Germany, and most of the rest of it were also suffering huge drops in per-capita GDP
I don't know about Germany, but France were as deep in it as we were, and managed to get to where France along with Germany are pretty much the dominant economic powers of Europe.

Without Thatcherism and ripping the heart, compassion and industrial infrastructure out of the country.

We don't make anything now. We are a nationwide call centre awaiting being outsourced to India...
And all you`ve got are just a few factories from two Japanese firms (Toyota, Honda, and Nissan) making cars. That`s only slightly good, but not enough for a nation like the UK.
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Old April 15 2013, 03:29 PM   #60
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
Relayer1 wrote: View Post
gturner wrote: View Post
^ Um, you realize that without her, or the much needed reforms, you'd be on par with Paraguay now? Thankfully, the UK now has a 7.8 percent unemployment rate. Greece has a 27 or 28 percent unemployment rate.


Great Britain was the sick man of Europe, and all of Europe was sick. France, Germany, and most of the rest of it were also suffering huge drops in per-capita GDP
I don't know about Germany, but France were as deep in it as we were, and managed to get to where France along with Germany are pretty much the dominant economic powers of Europe.

Without Thatcherism and ripping the heart, compassion and industrial infrastructure out of the country.

We don't make anything now. We are a nationwide call centre awaiting being outsourced to India...
And all you`ve got are just a few factories from two Japanese firms (Toyota, Honda, and Nissan) making cars. That`s only slightly good, but not enough for a nation like the UK.
The UK is home to:
• Seven volume car manufacturers.
• Eight major premium and sports car manufacturers and
more than 100 specialist brands.
• Eight commercial vehicle manufacturers.
• Ten bus and coach manufacturers.
• Around 2,350 component manufacturers, ranging from
large companies competing globally to small and
medium sized businesses (SMEs) actively involved in the
UK supply chain3.
• Eight Formula One teams and the largest concentration
of motorsport firms found within Motorsport Valley,
located in the centre of the UK4.
Source
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