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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old April 14 2013, 01:55 PM   #31
MacLeod
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Re: The Genesis Torpedo Should Have Tipped Over When Reliant Was Blast

Timo wrote: View Post
The one thing speaking against that is that Uhura was sending messages of "Prepare to be boarded" for several minutes before the subject of "You can't" arose. Why did Spock say nothing? Was he thinking that Kirk's parties could board the Reliant via shuttles, spacewalks or hard docking even though the transporters were out of the question? Or that Kirk was bluffing for some reason and it was not Spock's place to point out the weaknesses of the bluff?

Mind you, it would be advantageous to send Khan the standard Starfleet surrender ultimatum even if there were practical problems with it. Kirk should press his advantage, and asking the impossible from the defeated party is good psychology that asserts Kirk's dominance.

Timo Saloniemi
Jon1701 wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
...whether you could beam over...
Well, David Marcus clearly says "You can't".


Timo Saloniemi
I always took "You can't" as "You can't stop it".

It being Genesis. I've never read that line as you couldn't beam over.

I suppose you could take the line reading that way but I always assumed he was talking about turning it off. When David says "You can't" he means:

"We forgot to put an off switch on it"


That's how I understood David's line, is that once the Genesis device had been activated there was no way to stop it from detonating. As for being able to transport in the nebula. They might have been intending to use the Reliant's transporter pad as a receiving station. So using the Enterprises and Reliant's pads it acted like a pattern enhancer.
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Old April 14 2013, 02:51 PM   #32
MarsWeeps
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Re: The Genesis Torpedo Should Have Tipped Over When Reliant Was Blast

Jon1701 wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
...whether you could beam over...
Well, David Marcus clearly says "You can't".


Timo Saloniemi
I always took "You can't" as "You can't stop it".
According to the transcript, that's exactly what it means. "You can't stop the detonation," not "You can't beam over."

SPOCK: Admiral. Scanning an energy source on Reliant. A pattern I've never seen before.
DAVID: It's the Genesis Wave!
KIRK: What?
DAVID: They're on a build up to detonation!
KIRK: How soon.
DAVID: We encoded four minutes.
KIRK: We'll beam aboard and stop it.
DAVID: You can't!
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Old April 14 2013, 08:16 PM   #33
Timo
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Re: The Genesis Torpedo Should Have Tipped Over When Reliant Was Blast

Well, the dialogue really is completely ambiguous on the issue. Jim just trusts that his son knows exactly what can and cannot be done - so if he shoots down "beam over and stop", there's no point in asking for specifics. David knows that something about it is impossible, and it might just as well be the beaming part.

Of course, David is by training a Genesis specialist, not a Mutara nebula specialist, so any inability to use the transporter would probably be Genesis-derived rather than nebula-derived. Then again, David has apparently lived for quite a while as next-door neighbors to this nebula, so we can't really tell what he knows about it...

Writer intent is pretty obvious here, even though the dialogue is not - but that's no reason to stop looking for clever excuses for why the movie wasn't wrapped up a few minutes sooner, with a bit less anxiety.

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Old April 14 2013, 08:43 PM   #34
MarsWeeps
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Re: The Genesis Torpedo Should Have Tipped Over When Reliant Was Blast

Timo wrote: View Post
Well, the dialogue really is completely ambiguous on the issue.
Only to you it seems. It's pretty obvious to everyone else.
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Old April 14 2013, 09:07 PM   #35
Timo
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Re: The Genesis Torpedo Should Have Tipped Over When Reliant Was Blast

Obvious, perhaps - but textually or contextually, nothing there says "You can beam but you can't turn off". The dialogue would need extra words to establish that, no way around it.

Since the device wasn't beamed out on wide dispersion or anything, it appears you and "everybody else" (quite probably including the writers) have the wrong idea and I have the right one.

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Old April 14 2013, 09:42 PM   #36
MarsWeeps
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Re: The Genesis Torpedo Should Have Tipped Over When Reliant Was Blast

Timo wrote: View Post
Since the device wasn't beamed out on wide dispersion or anything, it appears you and "everybody else" (quite probably including the writers) have the wrong idea and I have the right one.
But isn't that how it always is? You can never admit being wrong despite the countless times it's been proven you are.
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Old April 15 2013, 07:22 PM   #37
Marsden
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Re: The Genesis Torpedo Should Have Tipped Over When Reliant Was Blast

I think it had no off switch because of the long and elaborate arming that had to be done to get it started.

I think I remember 4 codes and 4 steps to arm it, probably could have been reversed until the final step, which is when the wave started.

Therefore, if it's triggered "you can't" stop it.
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Old April 22 2013, 03:09 AM   #38
Therin of Andor
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Re: The Genesis Torpedo Should Have Tipped Over When Reliant Was Blast

Marcus Porcius Cato wrote: View Post
why there was no abortion sequence. Did the research team really think everything would go right even if there was no Khan?
The device had been disconnected (and moved hurriedly) when Khan's people came aboard Regula I and started killing everyone else.
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Old April 27 2013, 08:50 PM   #39
publiusr
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Re: The Genesis Torpedo Should Have Tipped Over When Reliant Was Blast

Well, just to put a unique spin on it--maybe it did fall over and was damaged.

Something to remember. A smaller Genesis wave--using the same proto-matter, carved out a paradise inside the planetoid right? If it were unstable, it should have been evident early on.

Here is my theory.

The device would have worked perfectly.

One, it was placed inside a nebula, where it had to strain in order to re-awaken the pulsar we see--converting degenerate matter back to hydrogen (most of a stars mass remains at its death). We saw that later in DS9 when Richard Kiley's character awoke a star with perhaps similar means.

Reliants destruction, and the device falling over changed the genesis wave. The planet died, but it allowed Spock to live.

I would say that, without being knocked over, the reverse would have been true.

This plays into my dream Star Trek Star Wars cross over (with Dr. Who thrown in)

The Doctor and the Enterprise bring Alderan back to life by firing the genesis torpedo at the Death Star instead.

an even swap--added mass coming from an asteroid belt.
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