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Old April 12 2013, 09:00 PM   #31
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

cardinal biggles wrote: View Post
foxhot wrote: View Post
Three farts for selective tolerance.
That's three more farts than anybody gave for your made-up awards show.

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Old April 12 2013, 09:48 PM   #32
gturner
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

She had a lot of enemies in music, but all things considered, both they and the UK are far better off than being Greece, which pretty much is what the UK would look like if she hadn't radically changed its course: Little or no industry, unemployment at 27%, everyone dependent on state pensions and payments, and the government held hostage to union demands. I'm sure that any Greek politician who takes the harsh steps necessary to get that country back on track will become the most hated man in his own country, despised because he doesn't care about the people... unlike multi-millionaire rock stars who've snorted up half of Columbia and made a fortune bitching about Margaret Thatcher. ^_^

Case in point:

Penny Rimbaud of anarcho-punk radicals Crass once told me: "I think Thatcher was an absolute fairy godmother. Christ, you're an anarchist band trying to complain about the workings of capitalist society and you get someone like Thatcher. What a joy!"
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Old April 13 2013, 01:59 PM   #33
Beagleman
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

^^^
Yeah... No. She's in hell now.
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Old April 14 2013, 12:03 AM   #34
The Cubed Ho
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

There is no hell.
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Old April 14 2013, 12:06 AM   #35
Santa Kang
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

Hell was invented just so Maggie would have a place to go.
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Old April 14 2013, 12:26 AM   #36
Shaka Zulu
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

gturner wrote: View Post
She had a lot of enemies in music, but all things considered, both they and the UK are far better off than being Greece, which pretty much is what the UK would look like if she hadn't radically changed its course: Little or no industry, unemployment at 27%, everyone dependent on state pensions and payments, and the government held hostage to union demands. I'm sure that any Greek politician who takes the harsh steps necessary to get that country back on track will become the most hated man in his own country, despised because he doesn't care about the people... unlike multi-millionaire rock stars who've snorted up half of Columbia and made a fortune bitching about Margaret Thatcher. ^_^

Case in point:

Penny Rimbaud of anarcho-punk radicals Crass once told me: "I think Thatcher was an absolute fairy godmother. Christ, you're an anarchist band trying to complain about the workings of capitalist society and you get someone like Thatcher. What a joy!"
link
I'm sorry, but avoiding the situation in Greece is not an excuse for what she did the United Kingdom. In fact, what she did made things even worse, for manufacturing is now (mostly) gone (except for a few firms like Honda, and Toyota) unemployment is just as worse as in Greece, and things generally are shit all over the UK-just like Greece. Thatcher was just a silly woman with no real idea of how to build anything except to do the same crap that Reagan/Bush and Byron Muldoon did, and I won't mourn her-I will mourn for the shitty way she destroyed a people and a nation.
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Old April 14 2013, 02:18 AM   #37
gturner
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

^ Um, you realize that without her, or the much needed reforms, you'd be on par with Paraguay now? Thankfully, the UK now has a 7.8 percent unemployment rate. Greece has a 27 or 28 percent unemployment rate.


Great Britain was the sick man of Europe, and all of Europe was sick. France, Germany, and most of the rest of it were also suffering huge drops in per-capita GDP the same years that punk rockers were blaming Thatcher for the pain. At the time, the government ran most of the major industries and the government was beholden to Marxist-run labor unions (which thankfully the US didn't have). Economically, the UK might as well started filling out a membership application for the Soviet Bloc. Look around the modern world economy. Do you see a bunch of big government manufacturing jobs or a huge demand for British coal? Britain had to grow up and enter the modern world economy.
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Old April 14 2013, 03:18 AM   #38
Australis
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

Soem thoughts.

Russell Brand is a hell of a lot smarter than I gave him credit for.

Instead of the Oz version we should be using this version, it's much better:



More love for that version!

And finally a cartoon from the wonderfully vitriolic Steve Bell:
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Old April 14 2013, 01:27 PM   #39
yousirname
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

gturner wrote: View Post
^ Um, you realize that without her, or the much needed reforms, you'd be on par with Paraguay now? Thankfully, the UK now has a 7.8 percent unemployment rate. Greece has a 27 or 28 percent unemployment rate.
Most people don't object to the general idea that change was necessary from the setup in the '70s.

It's the way in which entire communities were just basically switched off with no real eye to the very predictable fallout.

You closed a pit and that saved the State money. But it also put ancillary businesses out of action and so more people in that area lost their jobs. With so much less disposable income in the community, even more businesses were hit and even more people in that area lost their jobs. Other countries around the world underwent deindustrialisation without anything like the same impact, because it's possible to plan ahead and make contingencies for the fallout. That's the real source of people's ire.

There are other issues with Thatcher - the ambivalence about South Africa, the poll tax, the SAS training the Khmer Rouge, to name a few.

tl;dr it's not necessary to think the NUM was right in order to think that Thatcher was wrong.
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Old April 14 2013, 03:54 PM   #40
not
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

foxhot wrote: View Post
There is no hell.

Don’t disappoint me; where the hell am I going to go to hang out of Friday nights?
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Old April 14 2013, 05:02 PM   #41
MacLeod
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

It takes two to tango, remember the unions had a part to play as well. Some where more militant than others when it came to reform. Did Thatcher get everything right of course not, no one does. But by the same token not everything she did was wrong. And something needed to be done when she became PM.

So it's 1979 you've just become PM, the country is in dire shape. What to you do to fix it? Now know one knows if things had been done differently if the country would be in better shape today or if it would be in worse shape.

As for the Community Charge (aka Poll Tax) it was based on the idea that every adult in the UK paid. So every adult within a local authority would pay the same rate, which in theory sounds fair. (and if you were unemployed/ a student/ low income) you would pay less. The system prior to it and what we have now is based on property, so with the community charge you might have paid more because there was 3 adults in the house. Now of course like with any tax system it had it's pros and cons.
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Old April 14 2013, 05:10 PM   #42
JoeZhang
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

Bollocks - it was a completely regressive tax and you are trying to whitewash history when you claim that you paid less if you were on a low-income - that is simply untrue, the only exceptions were students, OAPs and the unemployed.
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Old April 14 2013, 05:55 PM   #43
MacLeod
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

Ok, so I got that wrong. But a tax on which everyone pays the same can't be said to be unfair.

Generally no matter the value of the property in which you live, you as a person still get the same provision of services from your local government. With the community charge the idea is that each adult paid the same amount for the same level of service provision. With the rates based system someone living in £100 000 house pays less than someone living in a £250 000 house. So the person living in the more expensive house pays more, yet recieves no extra service provision. Now you can argue that this is redistibution of wealth.

And yes I paid the community charge.
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Old April 14 2013, 06:14 PM   #44
DarthPipes
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

Really? Someone is going to put any weight into the words of Russell Brand? And a couple of punk rockers?

Reagan and Thatcher were great leaders, the likes of which we sadly won't see again.
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Old April 14 2013, 06:28 PM   #45
Relayer1
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Re: Morrisey: 'Margret Thatcher did not give a shit about people'

gturner wrote: View Post
^ Um, you realize that without her, or the much needed reforms, you'd be on par with Paraguay now? Thankfully, the UK now has a 7.8 percent unemployment rate. Greece has a 27 or 28 percent unemployment rate.


Great Britain was the sick man of Europe, and all of Europe was sick. France, Germany, and most of the rest of it were also suffering huge drops in per-capita GDP
I don't know about Germany, but France were as deep in it as we were, and managed to get to where France along with Germany are pretty much the dominant economic powers of Europe.

Without Thatcherism and ripping the heart, compassion and industrial infrastructure out of the country.

We don't make anything now. We are a nationwide call centre awaiting being outsourced to India...
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