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Old April 14 2013, 01:50 AM   #211
marksound
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Fifteen pages? Really? For another Voyager "reset button" episode?
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Old April 14 2013, 02:04 AM   #212
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
We're not sure if they remember being Tuvix.
IIRC, yes, they did.
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Old April 14 2013, 02:22 AM   #213
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I don't recall it ever being alluded to later in the series. Heck, I'm not sure it's even come up in non-canon material, which strikes me as a lost opportunity.
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Old April 14 2013, 02:31 AM   #214
Guy Gardener
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
We're not sure if they remember being Tuvix.
IIRC, yes, they did.
I could see how you might think that, but I couldn't possibly comment.

(Janeway and the security guards escort Tuvix in. Kim and Kes are waiting with the EMH.)
EMH: I'm sorry, Captain, but I cannot perform the surgical separation. I am a physician, and a physician must do no harm. I will not take Mister Tuvix's life against his will.
JANEWAY: Very well, Doctor. Please step aside.
(Janeway goes to Kim, who is holding a hypospray.)
JANEWAY: I assume this is the radioisotope.
(Kim gives it to her.)
JANEWAY: Please sit down on this biobed.
(Tuvix sits. Janeway looks straight into his eyes and administers the hypo. Then she goes to the medical transporter console.)
JANEWAY: Locking surgical targeting scanners onto the isotope probe. Initiating separation sequence. Energising.
(As Tuvix is beamed away, two figures are beamed in, both wearing command gold uniforms.)
KES: Neelix!
NEELIX: Hello, sweety.
(Neelix and Kes kiss.)
TUVOK: Greetings, Captain.
JANEWAY: Mister Tuvok. Mister Neelix. It's good to have you back.
(We stay with Janeway as she goes out into the corridor and pauses a moment before walking away.)
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Old April 14 2013, 03:00 AM   #215
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

We know from other episodes how Janeway tortures herself when a crewmember dies under her command, even if we've never seen them onscreen. Part of that final pause in the doorway could be this has affected her too. Maybe her decision of what's best for the ship conflicted with her own moral beliefs, and someone died because she had to make that choice.
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Old April 14 2013, 03:12 AM   #216
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
Fifteen pages? Really? For another Voyager "reset button" episode?
Blame the fans that keep saying Janeway isn't a murderer when she clearly is.
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Old April 14 2013, 03:31 AM   #217
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
We're not sure if they remember being Tuvix.
IIRC, yes, they did.
I could see how you might think that, but I couldn't possibly comment.

(Janeway and the security guards escort Tuvix in. Kim and Kes are waiting with the EMH.)
EMH: I'm sorry, Captain, but I cannot perform the surgical separation. I am a physician, and a physician must do no harm. I will not take Mister Tuvix's life against his will.
JANEWAY: Very well, Doctor. Please step aside.
(Janeway goes to Kim, who is holding a hypospray.)
JANEWAY: I assume this is the radioisotope.
(Kim gives it to her.)
JANEWAY: Please sit down on this biobed.
(Tuvix sits. Janeway looks straight into his eyes and administers the hypo. Then she goes to the medical transporter console.)
JANEWAY: Locking surgical targeting scanners onto the isotope probe. Initiating separation sequence. Energising.
(As Tuvix is beamed away, two figures are beamed in, both wearing command gold uniforms.)
KES: Neelix!
NEELIX: Hello, sweety.
(Neelix and Kes kiss.)
TUVOK: Greetings, Captain.
JANEWAY: Mister Tuvok. Mister Neelix. It's good to have you back.
(We stay with Janeway as she goes out into the corridor and pauses a moment before walking away.)
By the way...at no point do I see Neelix or Tuvok saying.."Holy crap. Where have we been? What day is this? We were beaming up and...what happened?" This would indicate to me a continuation of consciousness. And murder or no. Neelix and Tuvok are more deserving of life than that Tuvix guy who was alive for three weeks.

Those are the tough decisions Captains have to make and all the comparisons in the world to genocide and Eugenics Wars doesn't change that. What would you have her do? NOTHING? Not make a choice because "She's not fit to choose between one or another?" Not making a choice is a choice people.

It's also good to know that the EMH would not cure Geordi when he was transformed into an alien creature. Nor Archer and Hoshi when they went through the same thing. Both very similar occurances of an alien life, through reproduction, taking a crewman.

Last edited by Dale Sams; April 14 2013 at 04:03 AM.
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Old April 14 2013, 03:37 AM   #218
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teya wrote: View Post
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
SO much pin-head dancing. I'll say it again: If two of your kids were fused into one being and started crowing about his rights...you wouldn't hesitate for one second to pull the plug and get your kids back.
Bullshit.

And since Kes made the tearful plea to Janeway to save her boyfriend, and it worked on Janeway...

I can state categorically that, even though my boyfriend required a transplant to stay alive, it never even for a second crossed my mind to kill someone to get him a kidney.

the comparisons to murdering someone to get their organs are pointless. They don't come remotely near the scenario in "Tuvix," where it would be more like if one of your boyfriend's kidneys had magically popped into another man's body without either one actually doing anything voluntarily to do that.

Tuvix is NOT a random bystander that Janeway is murdering to get at his organs. He's the guy who's PREVENTING(not on purpose) Neelix and Tuvok from being restored.
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Old April 14 2013, 03:58 AM   #219
Guy Gardener
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I'm amused that at the end of it, they're both in the gold uniform Tuvix was wearing.

1. What happened to the original clothes they were wearing a month earlier? Surely little bits of Neelix's underwear floating though their bloodstream is going to turn into cancer if he doesn't figure out how to work it out.

2. Each of those suits now has half the molecular density, which means they're only half as rough and tumble ready wear as they should be, and might rip from contact with a stray breeze... Just saying.

3. Is Neelix going to want to keep his half of the gold uniform? It's his, and the pips on his collar too?

4. If Tuvok going to want to Keep his half of the gold unifrom, because it smells of Tuvix. Nasally racist: nasist. Tuvok is going to burn his sheets. Actually where did Tuvix live? Did he have two rooms, for just in case, or did Kathryn consolidate space and wedge Neelix and Tuvok's stuff into Tuvixes quarters? If Kes was into what he had to offer, that means that they would have had three rooms between the two of them... And his ship, and she would have had to have christened airponics with someone in the timelines she stayed on Voyager without her virginity.

5. Were the gold suits the same size? Those two do not have the same inside leg or chest measurements. The wrong sized clothes materializing around them could have murdered one of these two men. Or broken a couple toes if one of them has shoes three sizes smaller than the other.

6. It had to be fixed. Tuvix wore a mottled leopard print like variation of the Star Fleet uniform. to disintegrate into coveralls so completely well for two such differently shaped men, like a stripper with velcro tear away trousers, the clothing was designed to tear away. Whoever designed that suit (The Doctor?)... MADE that suit did so knowing what Tuvix was going to be split and that when Tuvix was going to be split that no passrbys would have to observe either of these lads junk by accident.
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Old April 14 2013, 04:14 AM   #220
Dale Sams
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Also:

Not enough credit is given to Mulgrew's choices at the end. Dead steely resolve, no apologies. One last look as if to acknowledge his 'realness' and so she won't ever forget and can't say she didn't have the courage not to look him in the eyes.

Then the last shot, some remorse, then that steely "I'm the Captain" look. And props to the music on the final Voyager flyby too. Reminiscent of the music for "Private Little War".
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Old April 14 2013, 04:27 AM   #221
Melakon
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
. . . 5. Were the gold suits the same size? Those two do not have the same inside leg or chest measurements. The wrong sized clothes materializing around them could have murdered one of these two men. Or broken a couple toes if one of them has shoes three sizes smaller than the other. . .
Or restored Neelix would be loose and comfortable, while restored Tuvok would be speaking falsetto.
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Old April 14 2013, 04:34 AM   #222
Ryva Brall
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Sweet zombie Jesus, this is still going on?
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Old April 14 2013, 04:35 AM   #223
teacake
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

This is Tuvix thread No. 237.
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Old April 14 2013, 04:43 AM   #224
Ryva Brall
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teacake wrote: View Post
This is Tuvix thread No. 237.
I had a feeling that this probably wasn't the first one.

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Old April 14 2013, 04:57 AM   #225
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

What they needed to do was experiment with the orchids and find ways to make incredibly cool and useful stuff. DELICIOUS food! You could beam up some of the over abundance of leola root with a piece of chocolate so it all tastes like chocolate. Suddenly everyone is begging Neelix for more of it.
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