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Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

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Old April 12 2013, 01:54 AM   #961
JD
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Yeah, I just watched The Gathering, and I'd forgotten just how masculine they tried to make her look. In case anyone didn't know, Delenn was originally going to start as a man and transform into a woman.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:56 AM   #962
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Kirk,although you'll get varying opinions on the worth of watching the Spinoffs and movies, the one movie most agree is fantastic In The Beginning (It's a Prequel). The framing story is Londo as an old man telling a B5 story to children.
Yeah, it was definitely the best of the movies and I usually watch it first when I re-watch the show.

Here's the promo from back in the TNT days. Ah, memories.

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Old April 12 2013, 04:35 PM   #963
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

JoeD80 wrote: View Post
Jan wrote: View Post
JoeD80 wrote: View Post
She and Lennier both die in the Telepath war. It was actually supposed to be part of a Babylon 5 feature film, but that didn't get made.
It would have been seen in the spin-off Crusade episode "The Path of Sorrows" except that an agreement couldn't be made with Patricia Tallman so that part had to be re-written.

Jan
I was thinking of the "Wars of the Mind" outline in the TV movies book. It says something along the lines of "the fiery deaths of Lyta and Lennier can be used to promote the movie" (paraphrasing)
I don't think I'm familiar with that one......
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Old April 12 2013, 05:55 PM   #964
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Neroon wrote: View Post
JoeD80 wrote: View Post
Jan wrote: View Post

It would have been seen in the spin-off Crusade episode "The Path of Sorrows" except that an agreement couldn't be made with Patricia Tallman so that part had to be re-written.

Jan
I was thinking of the "Wars of the Mind" outline in the TV movies book. It says something along the lines of "the fiery deaths of Lyta and Lennier can be used to promote the movie" (paraphrasing)
I don't think I'm familiar with that one......
In the TV Movie book of the "Babylon 5 Scripts of J. Michael Straczynski" there was a three-page premise for a feature film with the title "Wars of the Mind". It's incomplete but the part that JoeD80 refers to reads:

It will also see the explosive (and very promotable) demise of two of the series second-level characters, telepath Lyta Alexander and Minbari diplomatic assistant-turned-Ranger Lennier.
Which of course ties in with the original draft of "The Path of Sorrows" where the captured telepath in Mattheson's flashback was supposed to be Lyta and when she escapes, she calls Lennier's name to a fighting Minbari just before the compound is blown up.

Jan
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Old April 12 2013, 08:17 PM   #965
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Sheesh... I should have remembered that!

(insert facepalm here)
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Old April 12 2013, 09:16 PM   #966
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Me too! Thankfully JoeD80 remembered it for both of us.

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Old April 13 2013, 12:57 AM   #967
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

There have been so many almost/could-have-been Babylon 5 projects over the years that I sometimes loose track. The IP is either cursed, or it expended vast amounts of karma in those first five years...
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Old April 13 2013, 01:15 AM   #968
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

The big problem, other than getting funding, is that Babylon 5 was always extremely serial in nature. It was designed to be a novel for television and that shows. It doesn't do stand-along stories all that well. Killing off Lyta and Lenier wouldn't have been all that powerful if you didn't know who they were, and without five seasons of television to get attached to them.

None of the Babylon 5 TV movies actually works as a stand-alone (except possibly River of Souls, which was pretty mediocre).

Compare to franchies which do have long-running movie series, which tend to be highly episodic so that a new view can jump right in.
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Old April 13 2013, 03:06 PM   #969
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

I think the bigger problem is JMS looking to keep a tight rein on the development of the stories. It keeps the B5 universe consistent and all, but it squelches out going off the beaten path from his idea of what is allowable. As a piece of fiction, I don't see why it can't as freely developed by others as any other franchise.
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Old April 13 2013, 03:16 PM   #970
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

A good point on the consequences of that control. Still, if you are an artist who invests so much of himself in the creation of a fictional universe.. I can understand why you'd be reluctant to give up that kind of control.
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Old April 13 2013, 03:23 PM   #971
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Neroon wrote: View Post
A good point on the consequences of that control. Still, if you are an artist who invests so much of himself in the creation of a fictional universe.. I can understand why you'd be reluctant to give up that kind of control.
It's what makes the series so very satisfying to me. Once you have a room of writers, there will always be discordance and discrepancy in any series. JMS having written most of the show, and in strong control of the rest, gives every episode something to contribute to the entire series. Even clunker episodes have valuable insights to the warp and woof of the entirety of the show. However, repetitive and awkward material that JMS was prone to did crop up a lot.
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Old April 13 2013, 11:49 PM   #972
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Yeah, I get the impression that JMS's attitude towards Babylon 5 has always been along the lines of "better no product at all than a shite product." He did let others write the novels, but it quickly became apparent that without direct oversight, the quality of writing and even the faithfulness to the spirit of the source material *really* suffered. As soon as he became more directly involved with story assignments and vetting authors, the quality improved drastically.

The only other officially licensed fiction of note since then has been the Mongoose books which--based on the odd samples I've read--were utter garbage. Not surprisingly, JMS had little to nothing to do with it and appears to have later disowned the entire body of work.

So yeah, while having a multitude of talents free to explore and innovate has been good for some IPs, something with as singular a vision as B5 really needs it's creator to at least watch over it.

Also, let's be honest, while there are indeed some gems in there, 90% of the Star Wars EU is disposable rubbish *at best*. Likewise, I don't think there are very many *good* licensed Star Trek novels, comics, games etc. Most are just OK and very few do anything really different with the IP.

Last edited by Reverend; April 14 2013 at 12:09 AM.
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Old April 15 2013, 06:21 PM   #973
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Reverend wrote: View Post

Also, let's be honest, while there are indeed some gems in there, 90% of the Star Wars EU is disposable rubbish *at best*. Likewise, I don't think there are very many *good* licensed Star Trek novels, comics, games etc. Most are just OK and very few do anything really different with the IP.

I jad to comment on this. I LOVE the Star Wars EU. Without it, Star Wars goes from my #2 Sci Fi Franchise to a far away #5. I've read a LOT of the EU, and 90% is awesome. It also has my favorite characters (Mara Jade, the Republic Commando characters, Jaina Solo, etc). I like Han, Luke, Leia, Lando etc., but mostly from their EU adventures. Heck, it even has the best villains, like Thrawn (who beats even vader if you include the whiny Anakin from EP 1-3 as part of the character, although his depiction in 4-6 is still awesome). Without that, its just a franchise with 3 good movies, three bad ones, and a horrible CGI TV show. I just figured I'd post my thoughts, since I'm a huge EU fan. Its fine if you don't like it, but there are enough fans to keep it profitable for over 20 years, and there is definately a reason why. Its much better than anything Lucas ever did, including the three good movies.
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Old April 15 2013, 06:34 PM   #974
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
Reverend wrote: View Post

Also, let's be honest, while there are indeed some gems in there, 90% of the Star Wars EU is disposable rubbish *at best*. Likewise, I don't think there are very many *good* licensed Star Trek novels, comics, games etc. Most are just OK and very few do anything really different with the IP.

I jad to comment on this. I LOVE the Star Wars EU. Without it, Star Wars goes from my #2 Sci Fi Franchise to a far away #5. I've read a LOT of the EU, and 90% is awesome. It also has my favorite characters (Mara Jade, the Republic Commando characters, Jaina Solo, etc). I like Han, Luke, Leia, Lando etc., but mostly from their EU adventures. Heck, it even has the best villains, like Thrawn (who beats even vader if you include the whiny Anakin from EP 1-3 as part of the character, although his depiction in 4-6 is still awesome). Without that, its just a franchise with 3 good movies, three bad ones, and a horrible CGI TV show. I just figured I'd post my thoughts, since I'm a huge EU fan. Its fine if you don't like it, but there are enough fans to keep it profitable for over 20 years, and there is definately a reason why. Its much better than anything Lucas ever did, including the three good movies.
Why do you say The Clone Wars is horrible? I started watching a few weeks back, and I'm in the middle of S4 and loving it. in the first couple of season, they made a mistake, IMHO, making it non-linear, so, an episode may air 2 seasons later, that is before a S1 episode, but, if you follow recommended viewing order (rather than the airing order) for the first couple seasons, it totally works, IMHO.
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Old April 15 2013, 06:51 PM   #975
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Re: Farscape or Babylon 5?

Well, Anakin/Obi-Wan/Anakin's apprentice (aka Short Round v2) are annoying. I haven't been able to stomach most of it, but there was a good story (I think it was two episodes) involving the clone troopers with none of the big characters where they had to stop a Jedi who was literally trying to kill a bunch of clones by tricking them into shooting each other. That was good. I'd watch a show with the clones were they pretend Anakin either doesn't exist or that he atleast isn't the biggest whiner to ever be a jedi. However, they don't do that, and so much of Lucas's stupidity just ruins the show in general.

My favorite Star wars book series (which is probably also in my top 3 book series of all time) is the Star Wars Republic Commando books. Lucas single handedly made them pretty much outright lies by turning Mandalorains into hippes just so Boba can be a loner and the last violent Mando. That alone makes me hate Lucas more than Episodes 1-3 combined. I personally pretend he didn't do that and Mandalorians stayed a warrior culture, but the fact remains is that he screwed up my favorite books because he's a hack. The hilarious thing is they can't even really be taken out of continuity (not that I want them to be, but I'm talking from the perspective of people trying to make the show fit the EU/vice-versa), because some of the characters in Republic Commando played a small but visible role in the Legacy of the Force books, so its just a big clusterf%$k at this point. He also went against the sensible "Twilecks and Humans can't have kids" idea and created mutant abominations that really make no sense. How does a human have a kid with an alien that literally has part of its brain hanging from tendrils in its head? Thats really pushing the human/near human Star Wars stuff. I can accept a human and many different species, but the Twilek/human hybrids make about as much sense as Human/Wookie would make, just because of the Twileks most obvious biological feature being incompatabile with humans. This isn't a huge deal, just another example of idiotic writing.

Overall, The CLone Wars is just an outlet for more horrible writing on TV to mess with the Star Wars Universe. Its something I can only stomach when it has absolutely none of the big characters in it, but since thats not generally a focus, the show just sucks.
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