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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old April 13 2013, 10:31 AM   #16
Timo
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Re: Organia and the Prime Directive

To nitpick, we never learned whether the Edo had warp drive or not - we only learned they consider transporters somewhat miraculous (indeed, their God probably operates similar technology, and Deeds of God = Miracles, even if they are more or less daily events...) and do not generally venture off their planet. Also, we were never explicitly told that the Edo were accustomed to receiving interstellar guests, although it was sort of implicit.

Then again, in "Bread and Circuses" the PD was in full force even though our heroes went down with the explicit intent of contacting SS Beagle people down there. So the level of contamination may be an issue, but not a clear-cut one.

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Old April 13 2013, 10:23 PM   #17
Shawnster
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Re: Organia and the Prime Directive

I said this in another topic, but it probably should have been here, instead. In "The Apple" the landing parting is specifically seeking the natives of Gamma Trianguli VI. An earlier survey had already been conducted of the planet. Now, while we don't know what that survey revealed, I think it's safe to say that even the most basic of surveys would be able to determine that the culture was living at a pre-warp primitive technological level.

Yet Kirk was ORDERED to make contact with the natives in order to deduce what the unusual readings were that the previous survey detected. So, Kirk was ordered by Starfleet to make contact with a primitive culture, and Kirk did so without any attempt to blend in with the natives and did not hide their advanced technology.

Just like Errand of Mercy. No attempt to hide their origins, clothing or tech. The only difference is that in Errand of Mercy they beamed down in a town square, in The Apple they beamed down unobserved.
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Old April 13 2013, 10:32 PM   #18
BillJ
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Re: Organia and the Prime Directive

Shawnster wrote: View Post
I said this in another topic, but it probably should have been here, instead. In "The Apple" the landing parting is specifically seeking the natives of Gamma Trianguli VI. An earlier survey had already been conducted of the planet. Now, while we don't know what that survey revealed, I think it's safe to say that even the most basic of surveys would be able to determine that the culture was living at a pre-warp primitive technological level.

Yet Kirk was ORDERED to make contact with the natives in order to deduce what the unusual readings were that the previous survey detected. So, Kirk was ordered by Starfleet to make contact with a primitive culture, and Kirk did so without any attempt to blend in with the natives and did not hide their advanced technology.
Like I said in the other thread, I don't think the survey ship actually landed people on Gamma Trianguli VI. They just did their survey from orbit then handed the information over to the big boys to dig deeper.
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Old April 14 2013, 02:12 AM   #19
Shawnster
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Re: Organia and the Prime Directive

I guess my point is even with that type of survey you can tell what tech level a society is. Radio transmissions would be detectable. Atmospheric scans can be done that would reveal hydrocarbons or other artificial chemicals. Orbit North America at night and you can't help but notice all the lights.

Even a simple orbital survey can reveal if the society is primitive or advanced. The survey detected the presence of intelligent life - why else would they even send Kirk back to talk to the natives unless they knew there were natives to talk to?

It seems Starfleet has a custom of sending landing parties straight to primitive settlements despite the Prime Directive. Errand of Mercy, The Apple and even A Private Little War support this. In A Private Little War somebody had to make initial contact with the natives.
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Old April 14 2013, 11:34 AM   #20
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Re: Organia and the Prime Directive

Well, in two of the three episodes you either break the Prime Directive or cede the planet to the Klingons.
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Old April 14 2013, 08:43 PM   #21
Timo
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Re: Organia and the Prime Directive

The Prime Directive clearly doesn't even begin to apply in "Errand of Mercy" or "A Private Little War" - it's simply not among the issues our disciplined and trained heroes would consider relevant to the situation, and is never mentioned. Is this because our heroes bend or break regulations, or because the regulations do not involve the PD in any way?

The latter explanation sounds more likely, considering Kirk isn't a criminal or a rogue. Also, none of the other episodes featuring the Prime Directive even remotely suggest that the PD would exist in order to protect "virgin" cultures from exposure to the interstellar community. In "Errand of Mercy", the PD is a tactical guide on how to best infiltrate a pre-starflight civilization; in "The Apple" and "Return of the Archons", it is a word in favor of local right of self-determination, shouted down because the locals weren't determining themselves right. In "Omega Glory", the PD just states that Starfleet skippers shouldn't declare outright war on the locals...

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Old April 15 2013, 02:26 AM   #22
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Re: Organia and the Prime Directive

The Prime Directive had to at least come up in conversation when first contact with the "Private Little War" natives was discussed. They definitely were a pre warp civilization.
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Old April 15 2013, 04:40 AM   #23
golddragon71
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Re: Organia and the Prime Directive

Yet, note the differences in exchanges Between Kirk and Ayelborne in EoM and Kirk and Septimus in Bread and Circuses.

Ayelborne: You are visitors. Welcome, welcome. I am Ayelborne.
Kirk: I am Captain James T. Kirk of the Starship Enterprise, Representing the United Federation of Planets, This is my First officer Mr. Spock.

Now Here Kirk makes no attempt to hide who and what he is from a "so-called primitive culture and not only does he do so but he does so fully expecting Ayelborne to understand all the concepts of Other worlds, space flight etc.... in a culture that is visibly on a bar with 11th or even 12th Century Earth whereas in Breads and Circuses we see this conversation...

Kirk: Perhaps you heard,let's say an impossible story, or a rumor, of men who came from the sky, or from other worlds.
Septimus: there are no "other" worlds.
Kirk: The stars!
Septimus: Lights. Shining through from Heaven. It is where the Sun is. Blessed be the Sun

Now Kirk makes no attempt to correct him on this of course (thereby obeying the PD) However, it's interesting to note that these Worshippers of the Sun (or Son as it turns out) not only are a Pre-Warp and in fact Pre-Space travel civilization but they also have absolutely no intention of recognizing even the existence of any world outside of their own! Despite the fact that this world is more closely developed to Earth in the 20th Century and would (at the level of development they were at) have been far more receptive in most cases of accepting the idea that they were not the center of the universe. (I mean, there had to be some astronomers on that planet!)
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Old April 15 2013, 05:16 AM   #24
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Organia and the Prime Directive

Shawnster wrote: View Post
The Prime Directive had to at least come up in conversation when first contact with the "Private Little War" natives was discussed. They definitely were a pre warp civilization.
Well to be fair their mission end seemed to be just to study some of the planets for medical reasearch or something and they probably weren't even planing on talking to the locals until they showed up ans shot Spock with guns they weren't supposed to have yet.

After that Kirk took the liberty of trying to blend in on the next trip down while he was investigating just what the hack was going on.

Also the Prime Directive did factor into it, Kirk only told the one guy he was from space a swore him to secrecy about it, his wife only found out from watching McCoy use a phaser.

Plus it seems some form of a Prime Directive like rule was part of the Organian Peace Treaty as the Klingon Empire's advancing one of the faction was a violation of the treaty.
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Old April 15 2013, 06:07 AM   #25
trevanian
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Re: Organia and the Prime Directive

Marsden wrote: View Post
UssGlenn wrote: View Post
One think to remember is that if a local culture has already learned about extraterrestrial life before the Federation arrives, then that portion of the prime directive doesn't apply any longer. Considering that the presence of a civilian Vulcan trader on Organia was not seen as out of the ordinary, Starfleet wasn't concerned about revealing themselves. I assume a similar sequence of events on before "A Private Little War".
That's right! I feel like Rok when he realised he could override his programing. No matter how "primitive" the culture, if they had knowledge of aliens and other worlds then it doesn't fall under the Prime Directive!
And that's the rub. Unless the Federation puts all its resources into picket ships and blockades around systems of pre-warp (or just skip that retcon, call it normally developing worlds), then what is to stop Harry Mudd or Ferengi or Cyrano Jones from waltzing in and telling all about the galaxy or the quadrant? Or selling them impulse engines, or warp drive for that matter?

PD is utterly unenforcable, except with respect to Starfleet personnel (with obvious exceptions.) Also it is ridiculous, and as a villain of ethical stature in early Bantam Trek novels put forth, "a policy of mass murder."

The other thing to keep in mind here is that B&C was credited to both Coon & GR. So you have the guy who came up with the prime directive (and the klingons, and pretty much everything else of enduring interest and value) being rewritten by the series creator, so there's no telling how the PD worked in earlier drafts. Could be they were both on the same page -- it's easy to see B&C as a reflection of their feelings about the network, censorship and the industry as a whole, and the show remains one of the more biting bits of satire in the whole run.
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Old April 15 2013, 10:20 AM   #26
Timo
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Re: Organia and the Prime Directive

The Prime Directive had to at least come up in conversation when first contact with the "Private Little War" natives was discussed. They definitely were a pre warp civilization.
Conversely, since the PD was not mentioned, we might just as well deduce that it has absolutely nothing to do with the pre-warp or post-warp status of civilizations. After all, nowhere in TOS was such a connection actually suggested.

PD is utterly unenforcable, except with respect to Starfleet personnel
Which is not a problem. It's a Starfleet regulation, so let it affect Starfleet only. TOS doesn't indicate it would be in place to protect natives from exposure - the only insight into why it exists is "The Apple" where it is to keep Starfleet from collapsing the governments or lifestyles of natives, regardless of their level of technology or exposure to the interstellar community. Essentially, it's a simple "Starfleet can't play God, even though it would be so ridiculously easy" rule to keep starship captains from misusing their powers.

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Old April 15 2013, 09:35 PM   #27
Shawnster
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Re: Organia and the Prime Directive

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Shawnster wrote: View Post
The Prime Directive had to at least come up in conversation when first contact with the "Private Little War" natives was discussed. They definitely were a pre warp civilization.
Well to be fair their mission end seemed to be just to study some of the planets for medical reasearch or something and they probably weren't even planing on talking to the locals until they showed up ans shot Spock with guns they weren't supposed to have yet.
It was established that Kirk met Tyree 13 years prior to the episode. Shooting Spock has nothing to do with establishing first contact with this particular pre-industrial civilization.
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Old April 16 2013, 04:06 AM   #28
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Organia and the Prime Directive

Shawnster wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Shawnster wrote: View Post
The Prime Directive had to at least come up in conversation when first contact with the "Private Little War" natives was discussed. They definitely were a pre warp civilization.
Well to be fair their mission end seemed to be just to study some of the planets for medical reasearch or something and they probably weren't even planing on talking to the locals until they showed up ans shot Spock with guns they weren't supposed to have yet.
It was established that Kirk met Tyree 13 years prior to the episode. Shooting Spock has nothing to do with establishing first contact with this particular pre-industrial civilization.
Yeah, the one guy he told he was from space to and from ehat it sounds like he swore to secrecy about it and for all we know it happened as a result of an unavoidable situation.
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