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Old April 12 2013, 10:53 PM   #181
Guy Gardener
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

The Doctor wanted to crack One's skull open like an egg to get his mobile emitter back.

That kids life was massively less important than the Doctors freedom from sickbay "momentarily".

You all keep going on about the sanctity of life.

If Tuvix had erased the doctor's program, he would have been fine and the murderous procedure that was going to kill him would be lost to Janeway along side her incredibly valuable EMH.

Would Tuvix have been put trial for murder of a hologram, or court martial for sabotage?

The didn't cut his security privileges, and look how easily the Doctor MURDERED the EMH from Equinox.

It would have been a piece of piss.
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Last edited by Guy Gardener; April 12 2013 at 11:39 PM.
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Old April 12 2013, 11:30 PM   #182
Ryva Brall
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
If Tuvok had erased the doctor's program, he would have been fine and murderous procedure that was going to kill him would be lost Janeway along side her incredibly valuable EMH.
Uhhhh... What?
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Old April 12 2013, 11:37 PM   #183
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

(Sorry, should have said Tuvix.)

No Doctor means no cure.

The Doctor is arguably the finest scientific mind in the Federation.

If you erase the procedure from his database. Or roll his personality back to a starting character, the "cure" is going to be lost and given time a much less proficient version of Doctor might need 60 days instead of 30 days to redo the the experiment and figure out how to separate Tuvix.

However if the Doctor gets too close to figuring out how to kill Tuvix again, Tuvix is either going to roll hm back again or stop fucking about and out right kill him, withwashing the medical database into a total blank slate.

"It was him or me."

And when "him" is a hologram it's really not any sort of decision at all.
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Old April 13 2013, 12:17 AM   #184
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Tuvix was asking for it if you ask me. A man with all the cool logic of Tuvok combined with the indisputable culinary skillz of Neelix was just too awesome to live.If the Borg had known about him they'd have made a bee-line for Voyager. That kind of awesomeness could only have enriched the Collective. Or at the very least improved their dinner parties.
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Old April 13 2013, 12:52 AM   #185
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Curses! Too Awesome to Live Syndrome claims another innocent victim!
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Old April 13 2013, 01:07 AM   #186
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

This argument is too intense for me.
No jokes allowed apparently.
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Old April 13 2013, 01:14 AM   #187
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Plenty of jokes.

Seven had thousands of enslaved hamsters in her brain driving that wheel she thinks of as her very own intellect and not a sweatshop staffed by slaves.

Every single one of those personality/lives should have been removed from Seven and given their own boy, whether it was holographic or they built a lot of tailored clones.

Of course, after that, what husk would be left over to call herself Anika Hansen?
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Old April 13 2013, 01:43 AM   #188
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Lance wrote: View Post
Tuvix was asking for it if you ask me. A man with all the cool logic of Tuvok combined with the indisputable culinary skillz of Neelix was just too awesome to live.If the Borg had known about him they'd have made a bee-line for Voyager. That kind of awesomeness could only have enriched the Collective. Or at the very least improved their dinner parties.
Damn, someone just won this thread.
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Old April 13 2013, 04:04 AM   #189
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
I'm still having a hard time getting past the likelihood that "Tuvix" is just delusional transporter psychosis ranting when he declares himself a seperate being with rights.
Ah, yes -- when we want to violate someone else's rights, we must de-humanize them. Make them the "Other." Make them into something "less" than us, deny their personhood.



Tuvix was a real person. He had his own personality. His own thoughts, his own feelings, his own goals, his own agency. He was a unique and distinct person from Tuvok and Neelix.

ETA:

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Me, I'm sticking with the view that the very fact that Tuvok and Neelix were able to be separated at all, proves that they were never dead.
I for one question whether or not the Tuvok and Neelix who were brought back out of Tuvix were actually the same beings as the originals. I think it's more accurate to call them identical copies.

Pavonis wrote: View Post
My question is, what was lost when Tuvok and Neelix were combined, and what was gained or lost when Tuvix was deconstructed into his components? If the memories of all three were retained before and after, the knowledge and skills were retained before and after, then what was gained or lost in deconstructing Tuvix?
The systems. The organized patterns of neurological interactions which constitute a unique consciousness.

Think of it this way:

An orchestra is a collection of instruments. Different instruments can interact in different ways to play completely different performances of musical compositions. The same instruments could play Beethoven one hour, and Elton John the next.

So it is with consciousness. A person's consciousness is not merely their body, nor is it merely the informational components. A person's consciousness is the unique and active system created by the sum of those components' interactions. It, like a performance of a musical composition, exists for a limited period of time, and ceases to exist when those instruments cease interacting. A person's consciousness is an interacting pattern.

What we see with Tuvok and Neelix is, in essence, two orchestras -- each playing their own performances of their own compositions -- coming together, ending their respective performances, and then starting a new performance of a new composition that incorporates pieces of the first two. But just as a performance of a mash-up is a different performance of a composition than the originals it was created from, Tuvix was a different person from the originals it was created from. The performances of the "Tuvok composition" and the "Neelix composition" had ended, and a new performance called "Tuvix" had begun. And then that new performance was ended, and a new performance of the first two compositions began. But the Tuvok and the Neelix who emerged were not the same beings who had entered, just as two performances of the same composition remain separate performances.

So the episode "Tuvix" in essence was the story of five people -- of the deaths of Tuvok 1.0 and Neelix 1.0, of the birth and death of Tuvix, and of the births of Tuvok 2.0 and Neelix 2.0.
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Last edited by Sci; April 13 2013 at 04:22 AM.
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Old April 13 2013, 04:36 AM   #190
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Sci wrote: View Post
I for one question whether or not the Tuvok and Neelix who were brought back out of Tuvix were actually the same beings as the originals. I think it's more accurate to call them identical copies.
You can say the same thing about every character that ever went through the transporter. Since the characters don't bother wondering whether they're "original" or "copies" after beaming around daily, then we should assume the question isn't meaningful to them. Why would it be different for Neelix and Tuvok after emerging from Tuvix?
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Old April 13 2013, 04:49 AM   #191
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
I for one question whether or not the Tuvok and Neelix who were brought back out of Tuvix were actually the same beings as the originals. I think it's more accurate to call them identical copies.
You can say the same thing about every character that ever went through the transporter. Since the characters don't bother wondering whether they're "original" or "copies" after beaming around daily, then we should assume the question isn't meaningful to them. Why would it be different for Neelix and Tuvok after emerging from Tuvix?
That was pretty much debunked by Realm of Terror when Barclay is shown being transported from a point of view with uninterrupted consciousness. Don't ask me how that works... but hey.
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Old April 13 2013, 04:52 AM   #192
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Yes, Janeway is a murderer.

A few years later in "Equinox", she even locked a fellow Starfleet officer in a room that was able to be filled with murderous aliens.
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Old April 13 2013, 04:54 AM   #193
Sci
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
I for one question whether or not the Tuvok and Neelix who were brought back out of Tuvix were actually the same beings as the originals. I think it's more accurate to call them identical copies.
You can say the same thing about every character that ever went through the transporter.
No, there's uninterrupted continuity of consciousness when the transporter works normally. Tuvok and Neelix clearly did not have an uninterrupted continuity of consciousness; their consciousnesses ceased to exist and Tuvix's consciousness developed.
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Old April 13 2013, 04:55 AM   #194
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

A tenth of 3 and a half percent of biomatter doesn't trade back which alters their biochemistry which alters their brain chemistry which alters their personalities which means that they are significantly different individuals than they used to be a month earlier.
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Old April 13 2013, 05:35 AM   #195
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Ah, yes -- when we want to violate someone else's rights, we must de-humanize them. Make them the "Other." Make them into something "less" than us, deny their personhood.

Indeed.
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