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Old April 12 2013, 09:39 PM   #166
Dale Sams
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Ryva Brall wrote: View Post
Wow, every time I come back, there's at least two new pages of posts - and new analogies. I think the only thing we can all agree on is that we're never going to agree!

R. Star wrote: View Post
So.... how about another Equinox thread?
Oh, yes, do let's.
We should. What's the crux? That John Savage was wrong? I thought that was fairly established.
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Old April 12 2013, 09:40 PM   #167
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Ryva Brall wrote: View Post
I think the only thing we can all agree on is that we're never going to agree!
And that's what makes this such a powerful episode. There is no right answer.

Me, I'm sticking with the view that the very fact that Tuvok and Neelix were able to be separated at all, proves that they were never dead. Death is, by definition, permanent. All instances where a character is supposedly brought back from the dead - I don't view that as true death. So that colors my thinking here.
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Old April 12 2013, 09:41 PM   #168
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
Ryva Brall wrote: View Post
Wow, every time I come back, there's at least two new pages of posts - and new analogies. I think the only thing we can all agree on is that we're never going to agree!

R. Star wrote: View Post
So.... how about another Equinox thread?
Oh, yes, do let's.
We should. What's the crux? That John Savage was wrong? I thought that was fairly established.
Janeway torturing that blueshirt for information is the crux.
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Old April 12 2013, 09:49 PM   #169
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
Ryva Brall wrote: View Post
Wow, every time I come back, there's at least two new pages of posts - and new analogies. I think the only thing we can all agree on is that we're never going to agree!


Oh, yes, do let's.
We should. What's the crux? That John Savage was wrong? I thought that was fairly established.
Janeway torturing that blueshirt for information is the crux.
Hmmm. I take it the Spock mind-rape scene in ST: VI comes up in those threads?
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Old April 12 2013, 09:50 PM   #170
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

So, did Captain Picard try to commit murder when he was attempting to talk Dr. Graves out of inhabiting Data's body in "The Schizoid Man"?
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Old April 12 2013, 09:53 PM   #171
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Back to OP, let me ask this since someone brought up the notion that Tuvix is a result of reproduction involving the alien plant....how is this any different than returning Geordi to normal in that one ep? Or returning Archer and Hoshi to normal in that other episode?
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Old April 12 2013, 09:55 PM   #172
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Captain McBain wrote: View Post
So, did Captain Picard try to commit murder when he was attempting to talk Dr. Graves out of inhabiting Data's body in "The Schizoid Man"?
I don't think resolving a crime is a criminal offense. Data has more right to his body than Graves, just as Neelix had more rights to his lungs than the Phage aliens.
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Old April 12 2013, 09:58 PM   #173
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

The mind rape bit from ST6 has come up any number of times on the movie forum. I've never seen the Graves one come up. I can't find much of an argument for that one though, Graves took Data's body after his died. Not fair. Not to mention Picard didn't even pull the plug, he just tried to persuade Graves to do the right thing and give Data his life back that he took. Though Graves saw what he became after he slapped Picard and did so on his own.
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Old April 12 2013, 10:06 PM   #174
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Sci wrote: View Post
Uh, no. Sentient beings are not merely physical components. A sentient entity is a system -- especially a mind, which is a complex system of neural interactions. When that system is dismantled and its components used to create a new system, that person is therefore dead. You might as well argue that George Washington isn't really dead just because the particles that made up his body were later absorbed by other organisms.

Besides, Tuvix clearly did not have the actual physical mass of two men; ergo, a significant amount of physical matter was lost in his creation.
Leaving aside the philosophical considerations of the transporters mechanics and abilities, the fact is that Tuvix did not have the mass of two men, but then, neither did Neelix or Tuvok have half the mass of Tuvix afterwards. Therefore, mass in the transporter is apparently not a strictly physical quantity but more of an informational state - the information of Tuvok and Neelix was superposed as Tuvix, and the Doctor merely separated the information of the two. I can't explain how it works, because 1) it's far more advanced than our 21st century technology, and 2) it works according to the principles of plot requirements.

My question is, what was lost when Tuvok and Neelix were combined, and what was gained or lost when Tuvix was deconstructed into his components? If the memories of all three were retained before and after, the knowledge and skills were retained before and after, then what was gained or lost in deconstructing Tuvix?
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Old April 12 2013, 10:08 PM   #175
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Might have been interesting if Graves had been forcibly removed.
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Old April 12 2013, 10:11 PM   #176
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Janeway had to separate Tuvok & Neelix and therefore kill Tuvix, because she knew she'd already done it.

His (Tuvok's) vision, during the fight with the Vidians, of a future TUVOK walking into a cargobay full of borg children told her it had been done, so naturally that's what she did.



[Hated season 5's "Fury" reference... I'm too tired (long week) to read the next 9 of (currently) 12 pages to see if someone else already mentioned this idea. If so, then I defer to their right to crow. ]
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Old April 12 2013, 10:13 PM   #177
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Pavonis wrote: View Post
My question is, what was lost when Tuvok and Neelix were combined, and what was gained or lost when Tuvix was deconstructed into his components? If the memories of all three were retained before and after, the knowledge and skills were retained before and after, then what was gained or lost in deconstructing Tuvix?
Kes gets her boyfriend back and doesn't have to undergo *insert violins here* the grief that Janeway did upon losing Mark.
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Old April 12 2013, 10:14 PM   #178
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

JanewayRulz! wrote: View Post
Janeway had to separate Tuvok & Neelix and therefore kill Tuvix, because she knew she'd already done it.

His (Tuvok's) vision, during the fight with the Vidians, of a future TUVOK walking into a cargobay full of borg children told her it had been done, so naturally that's what she did.



[Hated season 5's "Fury" reference... I'm too tired (long week) to read the next 9 of (currently) 12 pages to see if someone else already mentioned this idea. If so, then I defer to their right to crow. ]
Crow away! That's actually very good.
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Old April 12 2013, 10:20 PM   #179
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teya wrote: View Post
Pavonis wrote: View Post
My question is, what was lost when Tuvok and Neelix were combined, and what was gained or lost when Tuvix was deconstructed into his components? If the memories of all three were retained before and after, the knowledge and skills were retained before and after, then what was gained or lost in deconstructing Tuvix?
Kes gets her boyfriend back and doesn't have to undergo *insert violins here* the grief that Janeway did upon losing Mark.
Then Kes dumps him. Women.
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Old April 12 2013, 10:41 PM   #180
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

From Memory Alpha:

Tuvix actor Tom Wright was unsure if he could discern a moral in the episode's plot. "Not one that I can really pick out immediately [....] There isn't any moralizing," Wright observed. "It's just a story about a character, and you follow that character during the time he is alive. You watch the birth and the life and the death of one character in one episode, and there is no struggle between good and evil. It's purely a no-win situation."

When asked if he thought Tuvix should be spared the separation at the episode's conclusion, Wright stated, "I think it was inevitable that he would be separated. There would be no drama without that separation. So, I completely agree that he should have been separated."
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