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Old April 12 2013, 08:13 PM   #151
Dale Sams
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teya wrote: View Post
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Not to mention cynical to declare that all humans would pull the plug and murder someone without hesitation. I'd damn well hope no matter the circumstances of "pulling a plug" someone would hesitate.
Oh I'm sure some you'd find some zealots who would dance on the pinhead of morality. After all Mormons forbid blood transfusions.
Mormons do not forbid blood transfusions.

That's Jehovah's Witnesses.
My bad.
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Old April 12 2013, 08:32 PM   #152
Dale Sams
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

All right, how about this: I bump my head and become Sam Dale. I live 10 years as Sam Dale until my family discovers me and doctors say they can return my original personality with a minor procedure.

Is that murder?
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Old April 12 2013, 08:53 PM   #153
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

It is if you don't wish to undergo the procedure but are given no choice in the matter.

Death of personality is still death.

Not much different from Worf blanking Kurn's memory, though the motivations were evidently different. I can only assume the only reason Bashir went along with it was because Kurn had made it pretty damn clear he intended to die one way or another.
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Old April 12 2013, 08:55 PM   #154
teya
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Responding to Dale Sams: Why are you so desperate to convince those who disagree with you?

These are the facts from Star Trek canon:

1. One of Starfleet's missions (indeed, it's primary mission) is to "seek out new life."

2. Sentient lifeforms have what we call today "human rights."

3. Tuvix is a lifeform created by a form of reproduction known as symbiogenesis.

4. Tuvix is a sentient lifeform.

5. Tuvix did not cause the act of reproduction that created him.

It thus follows that Tuvix is entitled to all the rights & privileges of other sentient lifeforms in the Federation. One of those is the right to self-determination.

If the Federation is going to go around blithely deciding what sentient lifeforms deserve rights and what sentient lifeforms don't, then they are no better than Terran governments in our history which systematically enslaved or waged genocide on innocent populations.
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Old April 12 2013, 09:03 PM   #155
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I've got another spin on this.

In "The Visitor" Old Jake kills himself to bring his father back to life. I don't think anyone blames him for this decision, though depending on your view of quantum mechanics he just destroyed an entire timeline.

Now suppose someone decides that the timeline as shown isn't so hot and realizes that if Jake Sisko dies then Ben will be brought back to life and things might work out better for everyone. Are they justified in killing Jake to bring about this outcome? Heck, they're not even killing Jake per se; he'll be much happier with his dad around anyway, right? It's not Jake's fault that things have worked out the way they have either, he's just an unfortunate victim of circumstance.

You know, I think this is my root problem with Janeway's decision in the episode: I don't believe you should commit murder based on what you believe "the greatest good" is.
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Old April 12 2013, 09:11 PM   #156
Dale Sams
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teya wrote: View Post
Responding to Dale Sams: Why are you so desperate to convince those who disagree with you?

These are the facts from Star Trek canon:

1. One of Starfleet's missions (indeed, it's primary mission) is to "seek out new life."

2. Sentient lifeforms have what we call today "human rights."

3. Tuvix is a lifeform created by a form of reproduction known as symbiogenesis.

4. Tuvix is a sentient lifeform.

5. Tuvix did not cause the act of reproduction that created him.

It thus follows that Tuvix is entitled to all the rights & privileges of other sentient lifeforms in the Federation. One of those is the right to self-determination.

If the Federation is going to go around blithely deciding what sentient lifeforms deserve rights and what sentient lifeforms don't, then they are no better than Terran governments in our history which systematically enslaved or waged genocide on innocent populations.
I disagree that Tuvok and Neelix are dead. And by your logic, if Tuvok and Neelix went into a chamber of subspace we'll call 'oblivion' and Jack the Ripper came out....Janeway has no right to return Jack to get back her crew.

Tuvok and Neelix have the same rights as Tuvix (assuming that 'Tuvix' isn't a delusional creation much like 'Sam Dale' mentioned above) And your comparison to enslavement and genocide is the textbook example of false equivalency.
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Old April 12 2013, 09:15 PM   #157
Dale Sams
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

DonIago wrote: View Post
I've got another spin on this.

In "The Visitor" Old Jake kills himself to bring his father back to life. I don't think anyone blames him for this decision, though depending on your view of quantum mechanics he just destroyed an entire timeline.

Now suppose someone decides that the timeline as shown isn't so hot and realizes that if Jake Sisko dies then Ben will be brought back to life and things might work out better for everyone. Are they justified in killing Jake to bring about this outcome? Heck, they're not even killing Jake per se; he'll be much happier with his dad around anyway, right? It's not Jake's fault that things have worked out the way they have either, he's just an unfortunate victim of circumstance.

You know, I think this is my root problem with Janeway's decision in the episode: I don't believe you should commit murder based on what you believe "the greatest good" is.
I can't address that cause temporal mechanics makes my head spin. I can't even be sure that killing the Times Children is wrong, though my gut says it is. I'm less convinced by the claim that 'final episode Janeway commited genocide on a scale unseen in history'

I will say, I'm enjoying this thread and all these permutations.

I particularly like the Sam Dale moral dilemma I created which I think is much stronger than Tuvix. Especially if Sam Dale has his own family.
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Old April 12 2013, 09:19 PM   #158
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
I disagree that Tuvok and Neelix are dead. And by your logic, if Tuvok and Neelix went into a chamber of subspace we'll call 'oblivion' and Jack the Ripper came out....Janeway has no right to return Jack to get back her crew.

Tuvok and Neelix have the same rights as Tuvix (assuming that 'Tuvix' isn't a delusional creation much like 'Sam Dale' mentioned above) And your comparison to enslavement and genocide is the textbook example of false equivalency.
Do you also believe that this should hold true regardless of how long Tuvix exists for? So, 50 years after the incident, Starfleet can take Tuvix into custody and force him to revert to Tuvok and Neelix?
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Old April 12 2013, 09:20 PM   #159
R. Star
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
I'm still having a hard time getting past the likelihood that "Tuvix" is just delusional transporter psychosis ranting when he declares himself a seperate being with rights.

I guess the only way to solve that would be to determine if Neelix and Tuvok are indeed dead, have their own souls and are in the afterlife.
Well that's the same dehumanization that's been used for years to cover up murder. Like concentration camps would "take care of the job" instead of "execute the Jews" and Japanese guards would "use up the prisoners" instead of brutally working them to death.

It's pyschologicaly valid that people will dehumanize a person in their mind to cope with killing them. Calling Tuvix a transporter accident or a person with transporter psychosis is just another example of that
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Old April 12 2013, 09:21 PM   #160
teya
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post
Responding to Dale Sams: Why are you so desperate to convince those who disagree with you?

These are the facts from Star Trek canon:

1. One of Starfleet's missions (indeed, it's primary mission) is to "seek out new life."

2. Sentient lifeforms have what we call today "human rights."

3. Tuvix is a lifeform created by a form of reproduction known as symbiogenesis.

4. Tuvix is a sentient lifeform.

5. Tuvix did not cause the act of reproduction that created him.

It thus follows that Tuvix is entitled to all the rights & privileges of other sentient lifeforms in the Federation. One of those is the right to self-determination.

If the Federation is going to go around blithely deciding what sentient lifeforms deserve rights and what sentient lifeforms don't, then they are no better than Terran governments in our history which systematically enslaved or waged genocide on innocent populations.
I disagree that Tuvok and Neelix are dead. And by your logic, if Tuvok and Neelix went into a chamber of subspace we'll call 'oblivion' and Jack the Ripper came out....Janeway has no right to return Jack to get back her crew.

Tuvok and Neelix have the same rights as Tuvix (assuming that 'Tuvix' isn't a delusional creation much like 'Sam Dale' mentioned above) And your comparison to enslavement and genocide is the textbook example of false equivalency.
You keep coming up with more and more outlandish scenarios that bear no resemblance whatsoever to the episode we're talking about.

And, no, it's not false equivalency. If the Federation can decide that certain sentient lifeforms aren't deserving of the same rights as others, then they are being just as arbitrary as those Earth civilizations that decided that, oh say, my ancestors, were really animals, not human, and thus, it was ok to kill them for the "greater good" (i.e. white people gaining lots of wealth and expanding across the continent).
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Old April 12 2013, 09:21 PM   #161
hyzmarca
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

They should have just created a transporter clone of Tuvix and split the clone. Then everyone would be alive and happy.
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Old April 12 2013, 09:26 PM   #162
DonIago
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

^ I proposed that way back on page 1 or so.
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Old April 12 2013, 09:28 PM   #163
R. Star
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

So.... how about another Equinox thread?
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Old April 12 2013, 09:33 PM   #164
Dale Sams
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
I'm still having a hard time getting past the likelihood that "Tuvix" is just delusional transporter psychosis ranting when he declares himself a seperate being with rights.

I guess the only way to solve that would be to determine if Neelix and Tuvok are indeed dead, have their own souls and are in the afterlife.
Well that's the same dehumanization that's been used for years to cover up murder. Like concentration camps would "take care of the job" instead of "execute the Jews" and Japanese guards would "use up the prisoners" instead of brutally working them to death.

It's pyschologicaly valid that people will dehumanize a person in their mind to cope with killing them. Calling Tuvix a transporter accident or a person with transporter psychosis is just another example of that
*More* Godwin, eh?

You all do realize you are presenting valid arguments (I've said as much) that don't require false equivalencies.

Dale as Captain: "Christ, someone get me a Vulcan priest and Chakotay to advise me on what to do here."

As for the question of whether SF has the right to 'cure' Tuvix after 50 years...it's a tough question. If Neelix and Tuvok were stuck in a transporter buffer and sending Tuvix through would be the only way to retrieve them do you?

What if another Vulcan determined that Tuvix was lying and that Tuvok and Neelix are conscious and aware in Tuvix (Ala Being John Malkovitch) but Tuvix is suppressing them? Does Tuvix still have the right to live at their expense?

I'm jus askin and discussing.
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Old April 12 2013, 09:36 PM   #165
Ryva Brall
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Wow, every time I come back, there's at least two new pages of posts - and new analogies. I think the only thing we can all agree on is that we're never going to agree!

R. Star wrote: View Post
So.... how about another Equinox thread?
Oh, yes, do let's.
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