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Old April 12 2013, 08:20 AM   #121
Melakon
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Maybe Janeway was having a bad hair day. The story does what it set out to do, make people think about all the moral and ethical choices. Whether we agree with Janeway or not isn't important, it's that we see the other sides of the issue. And as has been said, it's another riff on the "needs of the many" theme, which Kirk turns on its ear in TSFS.
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Old April 12 2013, 12:29 PM   #122
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

IN that episode Janeway also said that if she saw any more harvesting-ships that she blow them out of space on principle.

Tuvix had the will of two men to live.

Therefore Tuvix had twice the will to live than Tuvok, and twice the will of Neelix to live.

Individually Neelix and Tuvok where both at least half as numerically significant to the mission than Tuvix.
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Old April 12 2013, 02:02 PM   #123
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
If your wife were sucked into your computer (bear with me) and suddenly the computer started claiming sentience and talking and saying it was alive and deserved life and that if you return it to being a computer and your wife you'll be commiting murder...you'd laugh and fire up the ol molecular separator without a moments hesitation.

It's exactly the same thing.

Bracing myself for the barrage of "What? No it isn't!" It is. It may be a bad analogy, but it is the same thing.
So suppose John and Larry died in a car accident and their organs were used to create a new person(bear with me) named Tom. So while Tom's happily living his life for weeks another mad doctor discovers how an anti-car crash cure but needs the organs back. So he decides to kill Tom to harvest his organs to revive John and Larry. Surely it's not murder, because Tom was different! And we know how bad that is in society, it's worth death sentences. Same thing.
I don't think it's the same since the organs are separate and Tom was not a complete fusion of two people. It would be wrong for them to just extract the heart and liver or whatnot and then you see Tom's dead body lying there, organless. I don't think the analogy is the same.

The computer analogy seems a little more plausible.

But honestly...let's say you and I were transporting somewhere...in a time period where transporters exist...and we became fused. At first we will recognize that it's wrong, that we are two people accidentally merged into one. But after time goes by, we start functioning as one. Then suddenly we don't want to be separated anymore because we became used to being one lifeform. However, the two people coexisting as one DO want to be separated. The voices and memories and thoughts are just too fused to say it.

If I got sucked into a computer and the computer started claiming sentience just because it contained my mind's thoughts and memories and whatnot...I would want them to separate us. Even if it wasn't a computer.

What if you became joined with your kid or your dad? It would just be weird.

Also again...it's TV...you can't just kill two main characters and substitute them with a fusion-man.
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Old April 12 2013, 03:50 PM   #124
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post
...it's TV...you can't just kill two main characters and substitute them with a fusion-man.
Though a similar artificially created person could be an interesting main cast character for a new series.
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Old April 12 2013, 03:51 PM   #125
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I think bringing up arguments like "it's a tv show" are dodging the issue; Janeway et al. don't know they're on a tv show.

I also think it's rather awful to bring up things like "Tuvix was creepy!" as an argument against letting him live, even jokingly. I don't believe humans have any place saying that one life is more or less valuable than another. That's the kind of argument Khan and his cronies would have used to purge the Earth of "inferior" humans so that they could have the planet to themselves...and they'd probably also argue that in the end they would benefit more (important) people than they were harming and that it was for "the greatest good".
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Old April 12 2013, 04:04 PM   #126
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

DonIago wrote: View Post
I think bringing up arguments like "it's a tv show" are dodging the issue; Janeway et al. don't know they're on a tv show.

I also think it's rather awful to bring up things like "Tuvix was creepy!" as an argument against letting him live, even jokingly. I don't believe humans have any place saying that one life is more or less valuable than another. That's the kind of argument Khan and his cronies would have used to purge the Earth of "inferior" humans so that they could have the planet to themselves...and they'd probably also argue that in the end they would benefit more (important) people than they were harming and that it was for "the greatest good".
These all seem to be aimed at my ponts so to counter; I think it's a bit pompous to ascribe lofty ideals to what is after all a bit of space-based storytelling centred around human dilemmas. Dodgy decisions by captains abound in ST (Captain Picard excepted). Aside from that, comparing doing away with one accidental construct to recover two other people to genocide is, well, a bit OTT?
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Old April 12 2013, 04:24 PM   #127
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Seems to me that Tuvok and Neelix were already dead, and that Janeway essentially murdered Tuvix to resurrect them.
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Old April 12 2013, 04:37 PM   #128
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

If they were dead they can't be resurrected. That's why it's such a neat dilemma.
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Old April 12 2013, 04:47 PM   #129
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

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If they were dead they can't be resurrected. That's why it's such a neat dilemma.
No, it's why the episode "Tuvix" can more easily be compared to a work of fantasy (wherein death may be reversible) than a contemporary moral dilemma (since death, as we understand it today, is currently irreversible).

Tuvok and Neelix are by any reasonable standard dead. Significant portions of mass that comprised their bodies -- including their brains -- are apparently lost after roughly half of each is combined into Tuvix. Their bodies have ceased to exist, and a new body been created. The unique mental patterns of each have ceased to exist; their minds have ceased to exist, and a new mind has been created. They are, in essence, Tuvix's deceased parents.

And, as was asserted in the episode itself, Tuvix is, by any reasonable definition, a separate and unique individual.

Ergo, the act of resurrecting Tuvok and Neelix inherently means killing Tuvix. The closest comparison would be to a fantasy story in which magically resurrecting two people requires killing a third.
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Old April 12 2013, 05:32 PM   #130
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Tuvok was salt, Neelix was water, and Tuvix was salt water. The Doctor simply found a way to separate the salt water into its original components again. Nothing was created or destroyed that wasn't already there.
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Old April 12 2013, 05:57 PM   #131
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Sci wrote: View Post
Deckerd wrote: View Post
If they were dead they can't be resurrected. That's why it's such a neat dilemma.
They are, in essence, Tuvix's deceased parents.

And, as was asserted in the episode itself, Tuvix is, by any reasonable definition, a separate and unique individual.
And when nessecery to save the mother, often an infant is allowed to die or aborted.

I really wish the episode had been better written with more analogies. Or the crux even rewritten. With Janeway having to choose between someone who has actually been born, and has a life rather than an accidental creation like Tuvix.

I haven't watched the ep in a while. Couldn't Tuvix have just claimed that he *was* Tuvok and Neelix merged together, and that they liked being together? I don't see a problem here other than Tuvok has to be the ship chef now in his offtime.
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Old April 12 2013, 06:09 PM   #132
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Deckerd wrote: View Post
If they were dead they can't be resurrected. That's why it's such a neat dilemma.
They are, in essence, Tuvix's deceased parents.

And, as was asserted in the episode itself, Tuvix is, by any reasonable definition, a separate and unique individual.
And when nessecery to save the mother, often an infant is allowed to die or aborted.
Um, no.

A fetus can be aborted to save the life of the mother.

Infanticide is illegal--in all cases.
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Old April 12 2013, 06:44 PM   #133
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Tuvok was salt, Neelix was water, and Tuvix was salt water. The Doctor simply found a way to separate the salt water into its original components again. Nothing was created or destroyed that wasn't already there.
Uh, no. Sentient beings are not merely physical components. A sentient entity is a system -- especially a mind, which is a complex system of neural interactions. When that system is dismantled and its components used to create a new system, that person is therefore dead. You might as well argue that George Washington isn't really dead just because the particles that made up his body were later absorbed by other organisms.

Besides, Tuvix clearly did not have the actual physical mass of two men; ergo, a significant amount of physical matter was lost in his creation.
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Old April 12 2013, 07:03 PM   #134
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Even if Tuvix had claimed that he was best suited to represent Neelix and Tuvok's interests...and I thought that occurred during the episode...does anyone really think Janeway would have accepted that?

Also, people can't claim that Tuvix is merely a composite of Tuvok and Neelix -and- argue that he behaved in a manner that they would not. The two concepts are antithetical.

I would have found the episode stronger without Kes's emotional outburst, which to me played as more than a bit manipulative, especially given that a being's life was at stake. I'd like to think that if I'd been in Kes's shoes I would have been a bit more high-minded than, "I miss my boyfriend!!!"

I'll add that I think telling Tuvix "You're one of us...unless and until we -ever- figure out a way to restore Tuvok/Neelix, at which point you're raw material," is awful. Way to treat someone as a second-class citizen due to circumstances they're blameless for.
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Old April 12 2013, 07:05 PM   #135
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

When Tuvok and Neelix used the Transporter they accepted that there was a risk no matter how small of a transporter malfunction. And Tuvix was created by a transporter malfunction.

So in part they accepted the risk that they could die as a result of a transporter malfunction. Now they did die in a fashion being combined to form Tuvix. A fully sentient being, who should have been afforded the same rights as any other being. The Federation has principals and sometimes you don't get what you want (Tuvok and Neelix) back if you hold true to them.
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