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Old April 12 2013, 02:35 AM   #106
Dale Sams
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

By the way, am I misremembering the first ep with the Phage aliens? Janeway could have returned Neelix's lungs but doing so would have killed the thieving aliens, so she chose not to?

Now *that* is hamfisted. Returning stolen property results in the deaths of the thief? Tough.
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Old April 12 2013, 03:08 AM   #107
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Bad writing aside, Tuvix' unwillingness to be separated was in effect holding two crew members hostage, who did not and would not choose to be blended in the first place. Reversing the accident was the only logical choice.

Arguing that it's the same as committing murder to harvest organs is just stupid.
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Old April 12 2013, 03:11 AM   #108
R. Star
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
Bad writing aside, Tuvix' unwillingness to be separated was in effect holding two crew members hostage, who did not and would not choose to be blended in the first place. Reversing the accident was the only logical choice.

Arguing that it's the same as committing murder to harvest organs is just stupid.
The only logical choice? Stupid? Simply because you say so? You certainly aren't providing any supporting evidence. Tuvix didn't take anyone hostage. He was created. Should an infant be charged with murder because he caused his mother to die in childbed? Same logic you seem to be applying.
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Old April 12 2013, 03:19 AM   #109
marksound
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
Carcazoid wrote: View Post
Bad writing aside, Tuvix' unwillingness to be separated was in effect holding two crew members hostage, who did not and would not choose to be blended in the first place. Reversing the accident was the only logical choice.

Arguing that it's the same as committing murder to harvest organs is just stupid.
The only logical choice? Stupid? Simply because you say so? You certainly aren't providing any supporting evidence. Tuvix didn't take anyone hostage. He was created. Should an infant be charged with murder because he caused his mother to die in childbed? Same logic you seem to be applying.
Nope. Try again.
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Old April 12 2013, 03:44 AM   #110
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Yes. Try again. Same logic you're using.
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Old April 12 2013, 03:46 AM   #111
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

God I wish we could have a thread called Janeway's decision to frakk a hologram instead.
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Old April 12 2013, 03:58 AM   #112
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
By the way, am I misremembering the first ep with the Phage aliens? Janeway could have returned Neelix's lungs but doing so would have killed the thieving aliens, so she chose not to?

Now *that* is hamfisted. Returning stolen property results in the deaths of the thief? Tough.
I'd forgotten that.

Yes. Janeway said then: "I don't have the freedom to kill you to save another. My culture finds that to be a reprehensible and entirely unacceptable act."
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Old April 12 2013, 04:23 AM   #113
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teya wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
Tuvix was a cad (a full blown Terry-Thomas cad). The situation gets re-scrambled in the later "Drone", when a transporter accident blends Seven's nanoprobes and the EMH's mobile emitter, with different results.
Yep, One was altruistic and willingly sacrificed himself to save others.

Tuvix was selfish and didn't.

But, still, selfishness is not a capital offense.
I would also point out that they or at least Seven was trying to talk One out of letting himself die even though him dying would have kept the Borg from continuing to come after them which kind of makes the Voyager crew come off as hypocritical jerks for the Tuvix thing.

teya wrote: View Post
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
By the way, am I misremembering the first ep with the Phage aliens? Janeway could have returned Neelix's lungs but doing so would have killed the thieving aliens, so she chose not to?

Now *that* is hamfisted. Returning stolen property results in the deaths of the thief? Tough.
I'd forgotten that.

Yes. Janeway said then: "I don't have the freedom to kill you to save another. My culture finds that to be a reprehensible and entirely unacceptable act."
And then she turns around and does it to Tuvix, ah the Janeway inconsistence strikes again.
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Old April 12 2013, 05:07 AM   #114
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Janeway's views "evolved".
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Old April 12 2013, 05:34 AM   #115
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
. . .You can't decide who lives and dies summarily on who you deem to be more important or not. Not if you're going to claim anything resembling ethics.
This is pretty much the decision the Doctor makes in the later "Latent Image", resulting in a nervous breakdown.
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Old April 12 2013, 05:39 AM   #116
Ryva Brall
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teya wrote: View Post
Yes. Janeway said then: "I don't have the freedom to kill you to save another. My culture finds that to be a reprehensible and entirely unacceptable act."
WOW. I'd forgotten about that, too. Now that is one glaring inconsistency in her character. She went from refusing to take a complete stranger's life, even if it meant saving Neelix from being essentially a paralytic, to being willing to take the life of someone who had become a friend to the crew. What happened?
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Old April 12 2013, 06:02 AM   #117
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Kes cried.
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Old April 12 2013, 06:53 AM   #118
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teacake wrote: View Post
Kes cried.
That's all Janeway needs to motivate her to off people, change timelines, and rattle stellar empires, her favorite lady's tears. Mark, Chuckles, or Q can take a ticket and get in line, but when 7 or Kes get the sniffles it's off with their heads.
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Old April 12 2013, 07:02 AM   #119
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Sad thing is, that's kind of how it came off.
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Old April 12 2013, 07:50 AM   #120
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teya wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
It wasn't for the good of the ship. The ship would have been fine with either decision. Janeway was even siding with Tuvix, until a tearful Kes begged to have her Neelix back who she loved more than any other...
Exactly.

Both Janeway & Chakotay commented on how Tuvix was actually more than the sum of his parts.

It was Kes's plea that influenced Janeway. And that's simply bullshit for a Starfleet captain.
I think it was a bold decision. The sort of really hard decisions captains, y'know, have to make because the buck stops with them. It wasn't an easy decision and I don't think she would ever be happy with having to make it but Tuvok was one of her oldest friends, so the upside of a hard decision is that two beloved crew members were returned.
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