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Old April 12 2013, 02:36 AM   #256
CaptainStoner
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

robau wrote: View Post
ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
Gary7 wrote: View Post
There's probably a huge apartment system managed by the government that enables basic lodging for free.
Yeah, but you'd be taking your life in your hands to live there. Free housing is the costliest kind. And smell that urine in the stairwells.
Everything is sanitized in the utopia.
Except on thursdays. Avoid the stairwells on thursdays.
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Old April 12 2013, 02:57 AM   #257
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

scotpens wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
Treatment of women. Sorry, but I don't like a sexist Starfleet, or your idea that a woman who isn't pretty can't have a future. Plus writing that one line "They're like animals" to describe a green skinned woman dancing to music is just bad.
You're looking at a story written in 1964 through the prism of 21st-century sensibilities. To audiences of the time, and I daresay even to many people today, it's quite understandable that Vina, with her crippled and deformed body, would prefer to stay on Talos IV where she could have the illusion of youth and beauty.

As for the Orion dance scene, IIRC, a line was cut before the pilot was shown to NBC -- something like "every now and then a man comes along who can tame one of them." So it could have been worse!
Plus for all we know the Talosians medical stuff was the only thing keeping her alive seeing as she said they put her back together wrong.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
And they never explained why the Talosians couldn't simply read Vina's mind (they were extremely powerful telepaths, after all. And Vina was unconscious, not dead! So she still had a mind to read) to find out what a human being looked like. OR, for that matter, they could have just scanned the Columbia's computer banks!
That assumes Vina had the necessary anatomy knowledge that they needed and/or the Columbia's computers weren't reduced to junk by the crash.
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Old April 12 2013, 10:12 AM   #258
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

CaptainStoner wrote: View Post
robau wrote: View Post
ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post

Yeah, but you'd be taking your life in your hands to live there. Free housing is the costliest kind. And smell that urine in the stairwells.
Everything is sanitized in the utopia.
Except on thursdays. Avoid the stairwells on thursdays.
Have you ever seen a stairwell in 24th century Utopiearth? Turolifts. Turbolifts everywhere. Even in modest semi-detatched homes, probably.
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Old April 12 2013, 11:13 AM   #259
ArcherNX01
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

King Daniel wrote: View Post
Have you ever seen a stairwell in 24th century Utopiearth?
Barclays house in "Pathfinder".
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Old April 12 2013, 01:53 PM   #260
ZapBrannigan
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

King Daniel wrote: View Post
Have you ever seen a stairwell in 24th century Utopiearth? Turolifts. Turbolifts everywhere. Even in modest semi-detatched homes, probably.
The horizontal turboshafts on the Enterprise sure aren't helping anybody to stay in shape. They qualify as another bad GR idea.

It reminds me of a line Bruce Willis had in Over the Hedge: SUV's are something humans need because they're slowly losing their ability to walk.
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Old April 12 2013, 04:01 PM   #261
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
And they never explained why the Talosians couldn't simply read Vina's mind (they were extremely powerful telepaths, after all. And Vina was unconscious, not dead! So she still had a mind to read) to find out what a human being looked like. OR, for that matter, they could have just scanned the Columbia's computer banks!
They obviously read her mind, or the Columbia's computer banks, regarding what a human being was supposed to look like, because they gave her the illusion of being a normal-looking human being.

But what you're talking about is actually repairing the physical damage that had been done to her body, for real. That would require some rather specific medical and anatomical knowledge. Vina's mind may not have contained that knowledge. It's also possible that Columbia's computers did not contain that sort of information either or that, if they did, they were destroyed in the crash.

So the Talosians did the best they could: they patched her back together as best they could figure how, and then used their power of illusion to let her see herself the way she originally was.
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Old April 13 2013, 12:27 AM   #262
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

CoveTom wrote: View Post
... and then used their power of illusion to let her see herself the way she originally was.
Spock: "SS Columbia. It disappeared in that region approximately eighteen years ago."

Haskins: "This is Vina. Her parents are dead. She was born almost as we crashed."


Susan Oliver was thirty-two years when The Cage started production. But when we first see her character, she is supposed to appear to the landing party to be eighteen (with respect, she didn't).

Number One: "There was a Vina listed on that expedition as an adult crewman."

Did the appearance of Vina, the appearance she wanted look like, look at all like the "original" Vina? In the first Matrix movie, they used the term residual self image. It's the way individuals tend to think of their own physical appearance. Especially during times when they can't actually see themselves. Vina's image of herself (assuming the Talosians let her choose it) was of a blonde, blue eyed, slim, small breasted, beautiful young woman.

But did Vina ever look like this?




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Old April 13 2013, 03:49 PM   #263
yousirname
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Tell you what, let us cut this down to a basic fact of the show ... WE SEE AND HEAR THEM USING MONEY.
No duh. That's why I'm saying it's self-contradictory. You're the one making these weird leaps of logic to pretend that it's not. The use of money in canon isn't counter to my position; indeed, it's a central feature.

The difference there of course is Jake actual did received monetary value for the sell of the land. It was made clear in the example of the book that Jake (as he said himself) was indeed employing a figure of speech.

What is in the least "self-contradictory" about any of that?
There's nothing self-contradictory about those things in themselves, obviously. It's the fact that there are other things in canon which, y'know, contradict the implied or express use of money which are contradictory. Thus rendering canon self-contradictory on this issue.

I don't think you're using that correctly.
I do.

not retrievable; irrecoverable; irreparable


And it's "for instance", not "for instants".
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Old April 13 2013, 07:43 PM   #264
T'Girl
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

yousirname wrote: View Post
There's nothing self-contradictory about those things in themselves, obviously. It's the fact that there are other things in canon which, y'know, contradict the implied or express use of money which are contradictory. Thus rendering canon self-contradictory on this issue.
And by "other things" you're referring to that single line of dialog in First Contact? There was never any consideration of there being no money during the production of TOS in the 1960's. And I can't recall ST: Enterprise discussing the subject one way or the other. Nor do I believe Voyager ever directly brought up the subject of no money.

During the creation of TNG, Gene Roddenberry express a vague idea of there being no money in the 24th century. But when pressed by the shows writers, he was unable to explain what he meant in even the most simplest of terms. The writers themselves lived in a society with money, whether deliberately or unintentionally, the existence of money in the 24th century worked it's way into the scripts.

If you say that there is no money whatsoever in the 22nd, 23rd, 24th centuries, you basically building that supposition on a single clear overt statement. Which flies in the face of dozens and dozens of examples of a more conventional financial system.

It not like it is a fifty fifty mix of yes money and no money examples. Your isolated evidence does not make the five series' position on money "contradictory."

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Old April 13 2013, 07:48 PM   #265
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

It's much simpler to just assume that Picard is being a condescending jackass when ruminating about money or the supposed lack thereof.
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Old April 13 2013, 07:57 PM   #266
scotpens
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post

But did Vina ever look like this?




I don't know what Vina looked like before the crash, but you've just reminded me why I had a huge crush on Susan Oliver.
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Old April 13 2013, 08:53 PM   #267
Jonas Grumby
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post
If you say that there is no money whatsoever in the 22nd, 23rd, 24th centuries, you basically building that supposition on a single clear overt statement. Which flies in the face of dozens and dozens of examples of a more conventional financial system.
Which puts arguing that there is no money in the Trek utopia on par with arguing that James Kirk's middle initial really is "R."

There was never any consideration of there being no money during the production of TOS in the 1960's.
Quite so.
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Old April 13 2013, 09:26 PM   #268
Nightdiamond
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Too bad trek simply didn't go further to explain how humans don't use money or that there might be some type of currency exchange.

They just stated it, and left it up to the imagination.


One strange problem that comes out of all this if you think about it, is that under this idea, humans are under a type of financial lockdown--

If they leave earth, they will have no money or currency to do anything.

The state may have credits to do things off planet, but the average earth citizen wouldn't be able to buy food, clothes repair parts etc, because earth doesn't deal in money.
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Old April 13 2013, 09:51 PM   #269
yousirname
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post
And by "other things" you're referring to that single line of dialog in First Contact?
I've already called attention both to other lines which make absolutely no sense unless interpreted as meaning no money is in use, as well as the express statement of the show's creator. I don't know why you keep going back to this 'one line' canard.

There was never any consideration of there being no money during the production of TOS in the 1960's. And I can't recall ST: Enterprise discussing the subject one way or the other. Nor do I believe Voyager ever directly brought up the subject of no money.
All of which is grist to the mill of my theory that canon is self-contradictory on this issue.

During the creation of TNG, Gene Roddenberry express a vague idea of there being no money in the 24th century. But when pressed by the shows writers, he was unable to explain what he meant in even the most simplest of terms. The writers themselves lived in a society with money, whether deliberately or unintentionally, the existence of money in the 24th century worked it's way into the scripts.
This isn't addressing my point at all.

If you say that there is no money whatsoever in the 22nd, 23rd, 24th centuries, you basically building that supposition on a single clear overt statement. Which flies in the face of dozens and dozens of examples of a more conventional financial system.
Again, not a single overt statement.

It not like it is a fifty fifty mix of yes money and no money examples. Your isolated evidence does not make the five series' position on money "contradictory."
One isolated piece of evidence wouldn't, no. Multiple instances across multiple shows, however...
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Old April 13 2013, 09:55 PM   #270
marksound
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post
CoveTom wrote: View Post
... and then used their power of illusion to let her see herself the way she originally was.
Spock: "SS Columbia. It disappeared in that region approximately eighteen years ago."

Haskins: "This is Vina. Her parents are dead. She was born almost as we crashed."


Susan Oliver was thirty-two years when The Cage started production. But when we first see her character, she is supposed to appear to the landing party to be eighteen (with respect, she didn't).

Number One: "There was a Vina listed on that expedition as an adult crewman."

Did the appearance of Vina, the appearance she wanted look like, look at all like the "original" Vina? In the first Matrix movie, they used the term residual self image. It's the way individuals tend to think of their own physical appearance. Especially during times when they can't actually see themselves. Vina's image of herself (assuming the Talosians let her choose it) was of a blonde, blue eyed, slim, small breasted, beautiful young woman.

But did Vina ever look like this?




To me, yes. Damn Talosians.
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