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Old April 12 2013, 01:25 AM   #91
teya
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Tuvix is one person. Neelix and Tuvok are two.

The greatest good for the greatest number. I don't see how it's possible to ever ignore this basic fundamental truth. Surely the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one?
Using this logic, then, you would be in favor of executing someone for organs? After all, one person can provide a heart, 2 lungs, a liver a pancreas, a small bowel & 2 kidneys. That's at least 8 people saved.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:25 AM   #92
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

^ No, because no human being who ever existed was created via the same method that Tuvix was. There's no "real-life transporter accidents" which eliminated two people and reconstituted one person from the combination of the two. That is an exactly unique circumstance.

Also, if Tuvok and Neelix lived on while Tuvix existed, then Tuvix lived on as part of Neelix and Tuvok, since IIRC both of them remember being Tuvix.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:27 AM   #93
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Also, if Tuvok and Neelix lived on while Tuvix existed, then Tuvix lived on as part of Neelix and Tuvok, since IIRC both of them remember being Tuvix.
You keep changing your argument and that one's circular. Tuvix himself used that one in the episode saying Tuvok and Neelix lived inside of him.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:27 AM   #94
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

The combination of two, but the best of neither. This could be the Frankenstein story, or The Fly. Any way you play it, the "creature" is doomed.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:29 AM   #95
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
Tuvix himself used that one in the episode saying Tuvok and Neelix lived inside of him.
Tuvix was using that argument (partially) to justify his own existence. So if Tuvix claims the right to live because Tuvok and Neelix lived in him, then why do Tuvok and Neelix not get to claim the same thing because Tuvix lives in THEM?
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Old April 12 2013, 01:33 AM   #96
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

If your wife were sucked into your computer (bear with me) and suddenly the computer started claiming sentience and talking and saying it was alive and deserved life and that if you return it to being a computer and your wife you'll be commiting murder...you'd laugh and fire up the ol molecular separator without a moments hesitation.

It's exactly the same thing.

Bracing myself for the barrage of "What? No it isn't!" It is. It may be a bad analogy, but it is the same thing.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:38 AM   #97
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
If your wife were sucked into your computer (bear with me) and suddenly the computer started claiming sentience and talking and saying it was alive and deserved life and that if you return it to being a computer and your wife you'll be commiting murder...you'd laugh and fire up the ol molecular separator without a moments hesitation.

It's exactly the same thing.

Bracing myself for the barrage of "What? No it isn't!" It is. It may be a bad analogy, but it is the same thing.
So suppose John and Larry died in a car accident and their organs were used to create a new person(bear with me) named Tom. So while Tom's happily living his life for weeks another mad doctor discovers how an anti-car crash cure but needs the organs back. So he decides to kill Tom to harvest his organs to revive John and Larry. Surely it's not murder, because Tom was different! And we know how bad that is in society, it's worth death sentences. Same thing.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:39 AM   #98
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Tuvix himself used that one in the episode saying Tuvok and Neelix lived inside of him.
Tuvix was using that argument (partially) to justify his own existence. So if Tuvix claims the right to live because Tuvok and Neelix lived in him, then why do Tuvok and Neelix not get to claim the same thing because Tuvix lives in THEM?
You tell me, you're the one using the same argument to justify Tuvix's murder.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:40 AM   #99
marksound
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

What would Kirk do?

Kirk would explain in a short but passionate speech what brought about Tuvix' existence. He would appeal to both the logical and emotional sides of Tuvix and convince him that while the idea of sacrificing himself is difficult and painful, it is the right thing to do.

Then Kirk would stun the creepy bastard and shove him into the transporter.

That's how a real captain does it.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:44 AM   #100
teya
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ No, because no human being who ever existed was created via the same method that Tuvix was. There's no "real-life transporter accidents" which eliminated two people and reconstituted one person from the combination of the two. That is an exactly unique circumstance.
Well, we don't have cyborgs in our world, either, or sentient robots, yet I don't know a Trek fan who would say that Seven or Data don't have the right to self-determination.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:46 AM   #101
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

^ If Seven or Data had owed their existences to the near-deaths of people who combined to create them, then I might agree...

Although there WAS considerable debate over whether Data is sentient...
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Old April 12 2013, 01:48 AM   #102
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
If your wife were sucked into your computer (bear with me) and suddenly the computer started claiming sentience and talking and saying it was alive and deserved life and that if you return it to being a computer and your wife you'll be commiting murder...you'd laugh and fire up the ol molecular separator without a moments hesitation.

It's exactly the same thing.

Bracing myself for the barrage of "What? No it isn't!" It is. It may be a bad analogy, but it is the same thing.
So suppose John and Larry died in a car accident and their organs were used to create a new person(bear with me) named Tom. So while Tom's happily living his life for weeks another mad doctor discovers how an anti-car crash cure but needs the organs back. So he decides to kill Tom to harvest his organs to revive John and Larry. Surely it's not murder, because Tom was different! And we know how bad that is in society, it's worth death sentences. Same thing.
That's pretty good. Tom was intentionally created, but I don't think that has much bearing.

Unfortunatly for the sake of Neelix and Tuvok being more important than Tuvix its a slamdunk argument. Had the ep been better written I'd probably argue the opposite side.

But in the end, it's really no more 'murder' than hypothetically ordering Geordi to expose himself to lethal radiation to save the ship.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:53 AM   #103
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
But in the end, it's really no more 'murder' than hypothetically ordering Geordi to expose himself to lethal radiation to save the ship.
Exactly. Since Tuvix was still a Starfleet officer - Janeway recognized him as one, at any rate - it would be his responsibility to sacrifice himself for the greater good. That's what Starfleet officers are expected to do. It's expected in any decent military force, real or fictional.

With Tuvix it's no different. If he wishes to consider himself part of the crew, he is required to follow all orders given him. Up to, and including, laying down his own life.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:54 AM   #104
R. Star
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Dale Sams wrote: View Post

That's pretty good. Tom was intentionally created, but I don't think that has much bearing.

Unfortunatly for the sake of Neelix and Tuvok being more important than Tuvix its a slamdunk argument. Had the ep been better written I'd probably argue the opposite side.

But in the end, it's really no more 'murder' than hypothetically ordering Geordi to expose himself to lethal radiation to save the ship.
No, it's not a slamdunk argument. You can't decide who lives and dies summarily on who you deem to be more important or not. Not if you're going to claim anything resembling ethics. You can argue shoddy writing since the episodic nature of the show is to preserve the status quo, but that's not what we're discussing. We're discussing the moral ramifications and justifications.

Geordi willingly accepted the job as chief engineer and one of those responsibilities was such a potential order. He CHOOSE that. Even then, he could choose to tell Troi to sod off in that hypothetical scenario. Of course he'd still die anyways. So he'd likely willingly save the ship. Tuvix never got a choice. He was told to choose, and then killed by Janeway when she didn't like his decision.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
With Tuvix it's no different. If he wishes to consider himself part of the crew, he is required to follow all orders given him. Up to, and including, laying down his own life.
When Data was ordered to report to Maddox to be dismantled so he could create more Data's he resigned and it was ruled valid by Federation courts that he had the right to choose.
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Old April 12 2013, 02:18 AM   #105
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I will admit there are a ton of arguments I can't make because of other episodes (see: The Time's Children or Tom Riker). And there's some other stuff I could argue, but they rest on the head of a pin.

You make a good argument Star. But ultimately as Captain, Janeway has every right in the world to do what she did and say "If anyone wants to get SF to press charges they can."

And I concede (thanks to that damn Data ruling, seriously that's crushing) it's not a slamdunk. SF officers can resign rather than not be ordered to go to their deaths*? hmmmph.

*And I could argue about that, but again it's rest on a pinhead arguing.
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