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Old April 12 2013, 12:44 AM   #76
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Tuvix is one person. Neelix and Tuvok are two.

The greatest good for the greatest number. I don't see how it's possible to ever ignore this basic fundamental truth. Surely the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one?
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Old April 12 2013, 12:47 AM   #77
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
And Guy, putting aside your religious refusal to accept the internal logic of the show regarding artificial intelligence. The lightbulb's programming was not capable of taking any action that would directly result in a loss of life. The Hippocratic Oath was hard coded into him, and he can't kill any more than Internet Explorer can render large DOMs.
This is what I was trying to say earlier. Like it or not, the Doctor was the chief medical officer on Voyager. Regardless of whether his decision was influenced by pre-programmed ethical subroutines or an actual conscience, there was no way he was going to kill someone against their will. And like teya said, just about ANY doctor, organic or not, would have come to the same decision.

However, I don't think there's any more point in arguing the case for the Doctor's sentience than there is in arguing over whether or not killing Tuvix was the right decision. It's obvious that everyone has their own opinions, and it's highly unlikely that any of us are going to change our minds. Clearly, none of us are on the fence about it.
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Old April 12 2013, 12:53 AM   #78
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Yes it is the right decision, and no it is not murder. For these reasons:

- Tuvix is one person. Neelix and Tuvok are two. The greatest good for the greatest number.
So you'd be willing to have anyone just kill you and harvest your organs if it would benefit two or more people's lives? Wait, you don't have to be willing. Greatest good for the greatest number.

- Tuvix owes his entire existence to a transporter malfunction. He was not supposed to exist.
Who are you to decide that? Who is Janeway? So only people who are actively given birth to have the right to life? What about cloning, do they have no rights just because of the method of their creation? The only fact that matters is he DOES exist.

- Retroactive though this may be, Tuvok and Neelix would later express gratitude that they were able to be separated. And the mere fact that they were able to be separated proves that they were never 'dead'...
I'm sure they are, but that's irrelevant to the discussion. For all practical purposes they were gone when Tuvix was created. That Janeway found out how to literally cut open a person against his will and give life to two others is the issue. Janeway has ZERO right to decide that she can play god and kill a person for her perceived benefit.
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Old April 12 2013, 12:57 AM   #79
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
For all practical purposes they were gone when Tuvix was created.
Ah-ha! So why is it abhorrent to end Tuvix's life, but not to end Tuvok and Neelix's lives? What gives Tuvix the right to exist at their expense?
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Old April 12 2013, 12:59 AM   #80
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
For all practical purposes they were gone when Tuvix was created.
Ah-ha! So why is it abhorrent to end Tuvix's life, but not to end Tuvok and Neelix's lives? What gives Tuvix the right to exist at their expense?
Because Tuvok and Neelix dying was an accident. Tuvix dying was deliberate murder. All the difference in the world. You can argue that Tuvix is morally a coward for not willingly sacrificing himself. But I for one don't think being a coward warrants a death sentence.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:01 AM   #81
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I wikipedia-ed the guy who played Tuvix and he is from the same town I work in currently.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:03 AM   #82
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post
I wikipedia-ed the guy who played Tuvix and he is from the same town I work in currently.
He did play the scene of the morbid victim here to perfection... the scene were he was begging for his life, trying to find someone to support him... and no one would was just plain tragic. Good work in the sense of setting a depressing scene.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:05 AM   #83
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I think morally it might have been wrong once Tuvix announced his wish "not to die", but TV is more mighty than the morale. The show needed Tuvok and Neelix. Moreso Tuvok... but yeah, still. It was a show and losing two of its main characters in one episode would have been a no-no.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:06 AM   #84
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Tuvok and Neelix weren't dead. Tuvix was the product of a transporter accident.

To accept the results of the accident and move on when you have the technology to retrieve the two is not logical.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:06 AM   #85
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post
I wikipedia-ed the guy who played Tuvix and he is from the same town I work in currently.
He did play the scene of the morbid victim here to perfection... the scene were he was begging for his life, trying to find someone to support him... and no one would was just plain tragic. Good work in the sense of setting a depressing scene.
He did do a good job. You feel his pain in the scene and you almost don't know what Janeway is going to do.

I kind of felt cheated that they never brought him up again. She could have suffered some guilt or something.

But even though Tuvix was gone and I felt his pain...once I saw Tuvok and Neelix transform back to their normal selves and Tuvix was just gone...I felt relief too. It was a weird emotion watching it for the first time.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:11 AM   #86
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
You can argue that Tuvix is morally a coward for not willingly sacrificing himself.
Yes, you can. And if Tuvix truly remembers what a Starfleet officer is expected to do - lay down his or her life to save a crewmate - then it is indeed cowardly for him to insist on putting his own life above that of Tuvok and Neelix.

Besides, Tuvix should have remembered the Vulcan logic he got from Tuvok. To restore Tuvok and Neelix is the logical move. There's no advantage to Tuvix's existence - he's not a better tactical officer than Tuvok, nor is he a better cook and ambassador than Neelix. And the principle of the greatest good for the greatest number is also a logical one as well.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:20 AM   #87
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teacake wrote: View Post
Two Crew Members versus One Crew Member = Janeway's decision is correct.

Excellent Vulcan + Annoying Talaxian versus Smarmy Creepy Conglomerate = Janeway's decision is correct.

Breaking Kes's Heart and Breaking T'Pel's Heart versus Breaking no one's Heart = Janeway's decision is correct.

Having to look at Tuvok and Neelix for 5 More Seasons versus Having to look at Tuvix for 5 More Seasons = Janeway's decision is correct.
Exactly. It's a no-brainer. And calling yourself a separate sentient creature that deserves its own life doesn't make it true.

"I am Tuvix. If you separate me it will be murder."

"No it won't. You're a combined creature. What is so hard to understand about that."
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Old April 12 2013, 01:21 AM   #88
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Tuvix: I have the will to live of two men!

A lot of good that did him. He tried to play the numbers game right back at Janeway.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:23 AM   #89
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
You can argue that Tuvix is morally a coward for not willingly sacrificing himself.
Yes, you can. And if Tuvix truly remembers what a Starfleet officer is expected to do - lay down his or her life to save a crewmate - then it is indeed cowardly for him to insist on putting his own life above that of Tuvok and Neelix.

Besides, Tuvix should have remembered the Vulcan logic he got from Tuvok. To restore Tuvok and Neelix is the logical move. There's no advantage to Tuvix's existence - he's not a better tactical officer than Tuvok, nor is he a better cook and ambassador than Neelix. And the principle of the greatest good for the greatest number is also a logical one as well.
So then since you're attributing a Starfleet officer's duty and a Vulcan's logic to Tuvix's actions, you're basically conceding accident or not that he is a person and he accordingly should have the choice of what to do with his life.

As for "advantages" to Tuvix's existence? Well Tuvix solved a problem in a day that had been stumping Tuvok for weeks and Janeway even said in her log entry his cooking was better and Neelix wasn't even Ambassador yet at that point. But that doesn't matter. You can't wave an executioner's axe over someone's head just because you do or don't think they're useful. Not in any civilized society anyways.

As I said, I'll concede the point that Tuvix was a coward for not sacrificing himself to save two others. Heck, Tuvix did that in the episode himself. But just because you or Janeway doesn't like his decision, that doesn't mean he loses all his rights as an individual. He was a person and he was executed for the crime of wanting to live. That's basically it.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:25 AM   #90
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Yes it is the right decision, and no it is not murder. For these reasons:

- Tuvix is one person. Neelix and Tuvok are two. The greatest good for the greatest number.
QUOTE]I'm sure they are, but that's irrelevant to the discussion. For all practical purposes they were gone when Tuvix was created. That Janeway found out how to literally cut open a person against his will and give life to two others is the issue. Janeway has ZERO right to decide that she can play god and kill a person for her perceived benefit.
Quite the contrary.
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