RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,957
Posts: 5,480,179
Members: 25,057
Currently online: 471
Newest member: Ghost_of_Bubba

TrekToday headlines

USS Enterprise Press-Out And Build Manual
By: T'Bonz on Nov 28

New QMx USS Reliant Model
By: T'Bonz on Nov 28

Star Trek Thirty-Five Years On 35MM: A Retrospective
By: T'Bonz on Nov 28

Trek Shirt And Hoodie
By: T'Bonz on Nov 27

A Klingon Christmas Carol’s Last Season
By: T'Bonz on Nov 27

Attack Wing Wave 10 Expansion Pack
By: T'Bonz on Nov 27

New Star Trek Funko Pop! Vinyl Figures
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

QMx Mini Phaser Ornament
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

Stewart as Neo-Nazi Skinhead
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

Klingon Bloodwine To Debut
By: T'Bonz on Nov 25


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science and Technology

Science and Technology "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." - Carl Sagan.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 11 2013, 08:32 PM   #16
Davros
Fleet Admiral
 
Davros's Avatar
 
Location: Kaled bunker, Skaro
Re: How does one "lasso" an asteroid?

Metryq wrote: View Post
Davros wrote: View Post
gturner wrote: View Post
I was making a joke because cables and space don't get along very well. ^_^
example please?
He gave examples.
None that I can see.
__________________
"Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society," -Oliver Wendell Holmes
Davros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11 2013, 10:13 PM   #17
gturner
Admiral
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: How does one "lasso" an asteroid?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Significantly, it doesn't have to be a solid "bukcet" to encompass the asteroid. A collapsible cage that expands to the size of the asteroid and then contracts again to the smallest size it can would solve that problem and give the tug something nice and solid to attach its cables too. In that case, figuring out how to keep the cage intact becomes a different engineering problem than the otherwise GEOLOGICAL problem of finding a piece of the asteroid solid enough to stick an anchor. The nice thing about the anchor method, however, is that you still have options to redeploy to a different spot if one of the anchors breaks loose.
USA just posted a story on NASA's lasso mission ( link) which has a video that's much more informative than the text.

It looks like they're using an expandable bucket for the capture phase (perhaps inflating like an air mattress, but I'm not exactly sure), and then they collapse it tightly around the asteroid. That part looked kind of like sucking air out of bag (which of course doesn't work in a vacuum). It also looked like they were about to start pulling it as you suggest, but they pushed it instead.

Pushing with the remains of an inflatable bag in between the asteroid and the satellite seems to me like perhaps the worst of both ideas - unless there's some sort of fairly rigid structure in between.

Finally the asteroid is placed in lunar orbit, astronauts fly up on SLS/Orion, dock, spacewalk to the asteroid, and then based on the theme music discover some sort of alien artifact.

Anyway, I recently red that some small chondrites are something between 30% and 50% void space internally, just a loose assemblage of boulders that happen to cling together. That might make any attempt at anchoring both easier (just stick a long pole in a hole or gap) and harder (It might just pull a couple rocks loose). One the other hand it might make processing easier because the material would already be in more manageable chunks.
gturner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 12 2013, 02:49 AM   #18
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: How does one "lasso" an asteroid?

gturner wrote: View Post
USA just posted a story on NASA's lasso mission ( link) which has a video that's much more informative than the text.

It looks like they're using an expandable bucket for the capture phase (perhaps inflating like an air mattress, but I'm not exactly sure), and then they collapse it tightly around the asteroid. That part looked kind of like sucking air out of bag (which of course doesn't work in a vacuum). It also looked like they were about to start pulling it as you suggest, but they pushed it instead.
That's concept art recycled from Planetary Resources LLC, from whom NASA seems to have borrowed the idea. Planetary Resources has spent the last year studying different methods of capturing small asteroids in mission profiles more or less identical to what NASA describes, but they don't have anything like a working model for how that would really work. The concept art is just that.

Anyway, I recently red that some small chondrites are something between 30% and 50% void space internally, just a loose assemblage of boulders that happen to cling together. That might make any attempt at anchoring both easier (just stick a long pole in a hole or gap) and harder (It might just pull a couple rocks loose). One the other hand it might make processing easier because the material would already be in more manageable chunks.
More to the point, if you have the ability to break the entire asteroid into smaller chunks, you could simply wrap a cargo net around the whole thing and arrange them into a long chain and haul that along its own center of gravity.
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 12 2013, 04:02 PM   #19
not
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: How does one "lasso" an asteroid?

The video link clarifies they would just take samples from the captured asteroid; I thought the intent was to bring it back to earth. I'm a bit disappointed!
not is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 12 2013, 07:32 PM   #20
gturner
Admiral
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: How does one "lasso" an asteroid?

Yeah, a manned sample and return mission to lunar orbit? Why not just have the probe return with a coffee-can full of material and just splash-down with it? They multiplying the costs by a very large amount and pushing the schedule back to 2025.

I would think the only reason for sending a manned mission to the recovered asteroid is to do anything required to process it into useful materials, since any sampling could be done with a second probe tele-operated from Earth.
gturner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 13 2013, 01:54 PM   #21
not
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: How does one "lasso" an asteroid?

gturner wrote: View Post
Yeah, a manned sample and return mission to lunar orbit? Why not just have the probe return with a coffee-can full of material and just splash-down with it? They multiplying the costs by a very large amount and pushing the schedule back to 2025.

I would think the only reason for sending a manned mission to the recovered asteroid is to do anything required to process it into useful materials, since any sampling could be done with a second probe tele-operated from Earth.

Why wouldn’t the original capturing device be made to collect samples and return to earth –something like escape pods?

Sending astronauts must have a sophisticated purpose that requires judgment a machine cannot yet make
not is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 14 2013, 12:11 AM   #22
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: How does one "lasso" an asteroid?

not wrote: View Post
gturner wrote: View Post
Yeah, a manned sample and return mission to lunar orbit? Why not just have the probe return with a coffee-can full of material and just splash-down with it? They multiplying the costs by a very large amount and pushing the schedule back to 2025.

I would think the only reason for sending a manned mission to the recovered asteroid is to do anything required to process it into useful materials, since any sampling could be done with a second probe tele-operated from Earth.

Why wouldn’t the original capturing device be made to collect samples and return to earth –something like escape pods?
Sample return missions are pretty mundane, actually, especially when it comes to near Earth asteroids. NASA's basically written that off as "too easy" and assumes that other agencies and/or companies will try to do that anyway (DSI and Planetary Resources are preparing to do exactly that eventually).

The whole point of capturing the asteroid is that you can put it in orbit of the moon where human explorers will be able to inspect it up close in a relatively cheap and short-term mission without having to break it apart or risk contaminating the samples. Also, that asteroid would inevitably be broken down for raw materials when they were done studying it; NASA probably figures they can find a good metallic asteroid with an abundance of platinum group metals and maybe kick off the start of a deep space gold rush.
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 14 2013, 12:48 AM   #23
gturner
Admiral
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: How does one "lasso" an asteroid?

Some of the space pundits are questioning NASA's mission as a pointless excuse to justify SLS/Orion, as there's no reason to send astronauts all the way to the moon merely to take a sample of an asteroid by hand. As the Mars rovers show, we can do a vast amount of science and manipulation without a manned presence, especially in the case of a very small target where a human's speed and agility are hardly necessary.

In this case the mission profile seems more political than technical. Earlier in the asteroid program NASA was ignoring any asteroid candidates below about 500 meters as being unworthy of a visit. Those plans were aimed at sending a human deep-space mission to an asteroid in-situ, and nobody would spend a couple billion dollars to see an Orion fly for a month to pull up to a rock about the same size as an Orion.

Then they apparently ruled out such a mission for budget and schedule reasons, so the goal would have to be less ambitious. Capturing a much smaller asteroid (perhaps 5 meters diameter instead of 500) and bringing it closer to us fit the bill, and that makes it easier to get an Orion mission to it. But if they brought it into Earth orbit (which wouldn't be an unworkable delta-V requirement) they could visit it with a Soyuz or Dragon on a Falcon v1.1, which doesn't justify building the SLS or the Orion. A remote sampling of the asteroid likewise fails to justify the manned spending.

This seems to be a case where the mission exists to justify the program and the mission requirements are written to justify the type of equipment we're building. It will probably fall by the wayside as soon as they find a better justification for the same equipment.

What they probably want to architect is having the Orion hook up with a manned asteroid processing facility in lunar orbit or L5, but that probably looked too expensive, long term, and easy to cancel.
gturner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15 2013, 11:51 PM   #24
publiusr
Commodore
 
Re: How does one "lasso" an asteroid?

Cables are going to have to be used. Astrnauts have to have them as guide ropes, or to brace themselves so as to apply force without knocking themselves into space. Cables also cut up the Kursk submarine you know. A solid nickel-iron slug cut be cut similarly.

But here is the capper. Many asteroids--all of them probably--rotate/tumble. What cutting an asteroid does is turn it into a bola. Release one end of it at a certain time when facing a certain direction, and you convert rotational forces into translational ones--reducing engine/fuel costs.

Call it David's sling
publiusr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 17 2013, 05:33 PM   #25
not
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: How does one "lasso" an asteroid?

I love the idea of the ‘fill in the blank’ mining space race; after they master sample size retrievals, the fun will be in capturing their full claims and control landing them to earth
not is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
asteroids, politicians

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:30 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.