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Old April 11 2013, 05:08 PM   #31
Guy Gardener
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

sonak wrote: View Post
there was no "right" decision here. Tuvix, through no fault of his own, was denying Tuvok and Neelix there right to life, but Tuvix had his right to be there as well. Many "dilemmas" in Trek are fake and poorly handled(see "dear doctor"), but this was not one of them. They created a situation where there really was no right answer.
Three weeks earlier Janeway arranged for the death of her entire crew including Neelix and Tuvok, and then got beaver-damned when her damn yummy duplicate got to be martyred instead.

Maybe she was reticent about that?

That sounds like Kathryn(s) murdered them twice already, if one set of Tuvix components more so unsuccessfully than the other.

Not a good month for these two.

Meanwhile NEXT WEEK!

Next fucking week!

Do you know what happens next week?

If Tuvix could have just kept some clever lawyering bullshit running Janeway in circles for one more frakking week. Not very long in the complete scheme of things... Hell even Q got a couple days for a trial before he was allowed to commit suicide.

One more week.

That's all he needed.

One week.

In one more week Janeway and Chakotay would have gotten horrible bugbites and gone into a terrible coma and then been marooned, never to set foot on Voyager ever again.

Resofuckinglutions.

If Tuvix could have stayed Janeways hand for one more week.

Janeway and Chakotay would have been gone, and this composite man would have been the Captain.

Captain Tuvix.

No one has ever considered this?

On fricking week on a stick.

Shit.

CAPTAIN TUVIX!

Tuvok risked certain death attacking a Vidiaan caravan to find a cure for his beloved (like a daughter) Kathryn... Tuvix would have left her to rot and waste time away frakking the Indian till she's grey and buried.

One week.

Shit.

Of course, then you have to wonder if Captain Tuvix would have gotten his ass kicked by Basics?
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Old April 11 2013, 05:09 PM   #32
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post

I personally think Janeway did the right thing, and I totally agree with Guy's numbers thing here. But the best reasoning I have heard (and I believe it was from Christopher Bennett) was that Janeway had to save Tuvok and Neelix because to sacrifice them for Tuvix would have been a betrayal to the rest of the crew. They had to feel that her loyalty was to them and not someone that was a transporter accident. Would you have gone on an away mission for her if you knew in the back of your mind that she might not choose you? It wasn't only a choice to save two friends, it was a choice to keep her crew's loyalty. To any effective captain, the crew's safety has to come first, before right and wrong even.
Well that's racism at work there.
Of course it is, but that still doesn't make her decision wrong, when in fact it was the only decision she could have made.

You know the funny part, you guys that don't understand how we can believe that Janeway was right, should understand that we don't see why you want to heap so much hate on her in the first place. And that is a prejudiced position no matter which side you are on.

The judgment of Janeway's action here depends entirely on a gut reaction. It is a moral dilemma, there is no right answer for everyone and everyone's opinion is completely based in the individual's prejudice. You can tell the pro-choice from the anti-choice here, you can tell the pro feminists from the anti feminist. It all colors the individual's opinion. And no one will ever agree.

IMHO, every thread that starts with the word Tuvix or Equinox, should be locked, no good comes from them.
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Old April 11 2013, 05:16 PM   #33
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

It was murder because ins(J)aneway ordered to put an innocent man to dead.
And in my opinion it doesnd't matter if it is to save 1 man or 20, Janeway forced Tuvix against his will.
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Old April 11 2013, 05:18 PM   #34
teya
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Brit wrote: View Post
Of course it is, but that still doesn't make her decision wrong, when in fact it was the only decision she could have made.

You know the funny part, you guys that don't understand how we can believe that Janeway was right, should understand that we don't see why you want to heap so much hate on her in the first place. And that is a prejudiced position no matter which side you are on.

The judgment of Janeway's action here depends entirely on a gut reaction. It is a moral dilemma, there is no right answer for everyone and everyone's opinion is completely based in the individual's prejudice. You can tell the pro-choice from the anti-choice here, you can tell the pro feminists from the anti feminist. It all colors the individual's opinion. And no one will ever agree.

IMHO, every thread that starts with the word Tuvix or Equinox, should be locked, no good comes from them.
No, Brit. My opinion on this does not come from a hatred for Janeway, nor does my opinion make me anti-choice nor anti-feminist.

And that's gotta be 3 of the most ridiculous assertions I've ever seen made regarding this episode.

My opinion on this comes from 35 years in medicine. The doctor was right. We don't kill one person to save another.
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Old April 11 2013, 05:40 PM   #35
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Ryva Brall wrote: View Post
I'm afraid I'm with teya, R. Star, and BruntFCA on this one. Janeway forced someone to kill himself. Against his will. It was for the good of the ship, but it was still murder. I like Janeway, but this decision has always, always disturbed me.
It wasn't for the good of the ship. The ship would have been fine with either decision. Janeway was even siding with Tuvix, until a tearful Kes begged to have her Neelix back who she loved more than any other... Even though she's 3 months (12 episodes) away from dumping him. Please murder creepy Tuvix who wants to have sex with me so that I can have sex with Neelix for three months and then forget that I care about him in the slightest.

If this "merge" happened after their breakup, Kes would not have been so impassioned for the return of Neelix, and Tuvix would have retained life on the ship.

But some of what I just said is based on a now spurious belief I once had that Neelix and Kes were boffing. Since I found out that they have separate rooms, on different decks of the ship I agreed with the nice on the inside people here, that Kes and Neelix had most probably never done it.

Factor this.

Neelix played it PG.

Light petting.

That's it.

Tuvix wanted to bang her hard into next week with his hybrid dong and Vulcan superstrength.

Tuvix was sex mad.

Neelix was letting Kes set the timetable (Wait till I'm three years old please.) and he was mostly nonexpressive about he obvious discontent concerning his throbbing blueballs.

Adding Neelix to the curry cracked the terse suppression Tuvok had on wanting to tap Kes.

Tuvok was an old man with old man needs that he passed on to Tuvix. He was not a child who would settle for a hug and a peck on the cheek if he was lucky. He'd killed people that got inbetween him and sex before, or Tuvok'd been bloody lucky he hadn't had to pull someone's spine out after going through pon far at least 12 times.

This is the sexual furiosity little Kes was running full tilt away from and used as the grease to leverage Tuvix's execution with Janeway.

She cried wolf.

Janeway believed her.

Ryva Brall wrote: View Post
And I don't think the Doctor should be attacked for what he said. The fact that it was his programming that decided it was wrong is irrelevant. If he had been a flesh-and-blood physician, his decision would have been the same. Doctors don't kill people against their will.
When a telemarketer rings you up during dinner time and they're reading badly from a script asking for the house holder or mispronouncing your name unimaginably terribly, how seriously do you take them?

They're robots.

Same difference.
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Old April 11 2013, 05:44 PM   #36
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
It wasn't for the good of the ship. The ship would have been fine with either decision. Janeway was even siding with Tuvix, until a tearful Kes begged to have her Neelix back who she loved more than any other...
Exactly.

Both Janeway & Chakotay commented on how Tuvix was actually more than the sum of his parts.

It was Kes's plea that influenced Janeway. And that's simply bullshit for a Starfleet captain.
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Old April 11 2013, 05:48 PM   #37
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Typical... if you're against the Janeway's decision that episode you're anti-feminist. There's a completely rational argument. As if Janeway's gender had anything to do with it.
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Old April 11 2013, 05:49 PM   #38
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I neither like nor hate Janeway but my position on her decision regarding Tuvix has changed over the years.

Did she murder Tuvix? Of course she did. There is no other way to interpret her decision and there is no way she would have been allowed to make the same decision if she had been in or near Federation space. If she had, she would have been spending a real long time in a penal colony.

But out on the frontier and out of contact with Starfleet, she has a duty to the other 140-plus people under her command to do her job to the best of her ability. In order to do that, she needs the people she trusts and that is Tuvok and to a lesser degree Neelix.

If she loses a crewman or two to rescue someone important to the operation of Voyager, does that also constitute murder? When Spock and good-Kirk conspired to force evil Kirk onto the transporter pad against his will to cure good-Kirk's sudden inability to lead, does that constitute murder? When Troi orders holo-Geordi into the fire at the expense of his life in order to save others, does that also constitute murder in real world conditions?
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Old April 11 2013, 05:52 PM   #39
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

BillJ wrote: View Post
But out on the frontier and out of contact with Starfleet, she has a duty to the other 140-plus people under her command to do her job to the best of her ability. In order to do that, she needs the people she trusts and that is Tuvok and to a lesser degree Neelix.
I'd agree with that argument if it wasn't that she said exactly the opposite thing in her log. She found Tuvix to be a wise counselor who used humor to get his point across. We saw that Tuvix used intuition to solve a problem that would have stymied Tuvok.

Tuvix had proven himself as an officer.
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Old April 11 2013, 05:55 PM   #40
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teya wrote: View Post
I'd agree with that argument if it wasn't that she said exactly the opposite thing in her log. She found Tuvix to be a wise counselor who used humor to get his point across. We saw that Tuvix used intuition to solve a problem that would have stymied Tuvok.

Tuvix had proven himself as an officer.
It's been a number of years since I've seen Tuvix. When I have some free-time I'll have to revisit it and see if my impressions change.
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Old April 11 2013, 05:59 PM   #41
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
Typical... if you're against the Janeway's decision that episode you're anti-feminist. There's a completely rational argument. As if Janeway's gender had anything to do with it.
If Janeway was a man, which means network TV would be able to tell this love story, and "he" wanted to take a run at Kes, leaving Neelix mostly dead would increase "his" chances of having naked sexy sausage time with the little Ocampa.

I'm obviously describing Captain Tom Paris, and not Captain Keneth Janeway... But Tom was Voayger's first officer in Resolutions and that episode last several months, a hairs breadth away form the big chair.

But in all seriously what Ken Janeway would have said to Kes if confronted with exactly the same midnight plea would have most probably been "Hey sweetheart, why don't you grow a pair." and then he'd kick that pixie out of his quarters as that musky auburn brute tried to make up his mind rationally about who to murder tomorrow.
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Old April 11 2013, 06:02 PM   #42
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Tuvix = Brundlefly.

Janeway had to reverse the accident before Tuvix started puking on the donuts.
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Old April 11 2013, 06:07 PM   #43
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

That could only improve Neelix's cooking.

Do you think Tuvok kept a copy of Tuvix's Katra in a partition of his mind after the dust settled?

After the insanity in the Admiral Janeway timeline finally broke down the bricks in that partition, Tuvix would have been free to take over the relatively healthy body it's diseased mind could barely control.
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Old April 11 2013, 06:30 PM   #44
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I see it as equivalent to any other Trek episode where a crewman is taken over and controlled by a noncorporeal being. Any captain would have tried to get his crewman back. For Janeway, two of the crew were being controlled by a single entity.
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Old April 11 2013, 06:38 PM   #45
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Melakon wrote: View Post
I see it as equivalent to any other Trek episode where a crewman is taken over and controlled by a noncorporeal being. Any captain would have tried to get his crewman back. For Janeway, two of the crew were being controlled by a single entity.
Tuvix wasn't an entity that possessed them. Tuvix was a sentient being created from them.

He did nothing to cause it; he was the result.
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