RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,377
Posts: 5,504,614
Members: 25,125
Currently online: 543
Newest member: Ted Dave

TrekToday headlines

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Paramount Star Trek 3 Expectations
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Star Trek #39 Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Star Trek 3 Potential Director Shortlist
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Dec 15

Retro Review: Prodigal Daughter
By: Michelle on Dec 13

Sindicate Lager To Debut In The US Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12

Rumor Mill: Saldana Gives Birth
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12

New Line of Anovos Enterprise Uniforms
By: T'Bonz on Dec 11


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Voyager

Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 11 2013, 02:15 PM   #16
Deckerd
Fleet Arse
 
Deckerd's Avatar
 
Location: the Frozen Wastes
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teya wrote: View Post
SO = significant other

No, life isn't a numbers game. It's not legal, nor moral, to take a life to save another. If you can save 2 or three or 10, it's still not legal nor moral. And Janeway never made that argument.

We also don't put a value on a human life by killing someone less "useful" to save someone else we think more useful to society as a whole.
But Tuvix was a smarmy, irritating git. It was a win win situation getting rid of him.
__________________
They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance.
Deckerd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11 2013, 02:24 PM   #17
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Janeway is supposed to love all her children equally the same.

Even though above her head is 70 years away, Tuvix was still capable of attaching anything to his service record or sending a time delayed memo to Star Fleet Command demanding a reprimand for Kathryn or insisting on his resurrection, becuase he's technically a UFP Citizen with rights.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11 2013, 03:26 PM   #18
Brit
Captain
 
Brit's Avatar
 
Location: Texas
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Sorry what I didn't specifically explain is that it was a numbers game for Janeway.

TUVIX: Begging your pardon, Captain, it's my life. Isn't it my decision?
JANEWAY: Aren't there two other lives to consider here? What about Tuvok and Neelix? Two voices that we can't hear right now. As Captain, I must be their voice, and I believe they would want to live.
TUVIX: But they are living in a way, inside me.
JANEWAY: It's not the same and I think you'd agree with me. They have families, friends, people who love them and miss them and want them back, just as I do.
TUVIX: But restoring their lives means sacrificing mine. Captain, what you're considering is an execution. An execution, like they used to do to murderers centuries ago. And I've committed no crime at all.
JANEWAY: Aren't you arguing for an execution too? Of Tuvok and Neelix.
I personally think Janeway did the right thing, and I totally agree with Guy's numbers thing here. But the best reasoning I have heard (and I believe it was from Christopher Bennett) was that Janeway had to save Tuvok and Neelix because to sacrifice them for Tuvix would have been a betrayal to the rest of the crew. They had to feel that her loyalty was to them and not someone that was a transporter accident. Would you have gone on an away mission for her if you knew in the back of your mind that she might not choose you? It wasn't only a choice to save two friends, it was a choice to keep her crew's loyalty. To any effective captain, the crew's safety has to come first, before right and wrong even.
__________________
"My name is Matai Shang and I do not exist, indeed I work very hard at it."

Avatar by Me
Brit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11 2013, 03:38 PM   #19
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teya wrote: View Post
She killed a sentient being to bring back 2 of her friends.

To put that in contemporary terms... My SO needed a kidney transplant. Would I have killed someone to get him a kidney?

No.
This. It was murder any way you cut it. Janeway had no right to terminate Tuvix against his will.

Sure, it's a numbers game, but it's Tuvix's decision to make. Does wanting to live at the expense of two others make him a coward? Quite possibly, but is cowardice a capital crime? Well I don't think so, but Janeway does.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11 2013, 04:01 PM   #20
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Brit wrote: View Post

I personally think Janeway did the right thing, and I totally agree with Guy's numbers thing here. But the best reasoning I have heard (and I believe it was from Christopher Bennett) was that Janeway had to save Tuvok and Neelix because to sacrifice them for Tuvix would have been a betrayal to the rest of the crew. They had to feel that her loyalty was to them and not someone that was a transporter accident. Would you have gone on an away mission for her if you knew in the back of your mind that she might not choose you? It wasn't only a choice to save two friends, it was a choice to keep her crew's loyalty. To any effective captain, the crew's safety has to come first, before right and wrong even.
Well that's racism at work there.

(British joke approaching, apologies to ignorant dirty foreigners.)

"This is a Local Ship for Local people."

(But I only care to entertain saavy British people who understand real humour.)

The nature of Starfleet as I understood it was to help "people" who are in trouble.

(Although the Prime Directive does insist that all the little aboriginal races on the fringe have to grow up and learn how to look after themselves before Starfleet will abide to give them a hand which by then they don't really need any more.)

But in Dreadnought, Janeway risked the ship to save strangers who knew for a fact that she was an asshole, albeit to save a planet from a Cardassian bomb B'Elanna launched....And in The Cloud they drained the the ships resources almost completely to feed a giant space baby they'd accidentally raped with their starship, which put them at wits end for probably weeks.

The Captain decides who lives and dies.

B'Elanna had a hissy fit about this very issue in the pilot.



The philosophy of self improvement (through sacrifice) to et all improve the species, and therefore by extension the entire Federation, makes your average human as dogooding as (not being sarcastic) a Mormon on pilgrimage rebuilding a ravaged third world country (When they come to New Zealand, it gets my nose right out of joint, we are clearly 2nd world and doing fine.) because it's a selfless expedition to help out the doomed... Earth was probably self doomed when they started paying it forward in the 22nd century after the Vulcans convinced them that money was stupid.

Yes, but my point, as they said in Star Trek VI: Every sentient person has inalienable human rights, no matter how racist and patronizing that sounds to alien ears.

It is the duty of every Starfleet officer to put their life on the line to guarantee the precision of the mission whatever that may be, not because there will be a value in their death, but because they took an oath, and unfortunately it's a certainly that routinely often some lives, goldshirts, will be wantonly wasted frivolously but it's not their job to wonder how righteous their death is going to be when they suit up in the morning.

It's Kathryn Janeways.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11 2013, 04:16 PM   #21
teya
Vice Admiral
 
teya's Avatar
 
Location: 2 mi S of Capt Braxton's shopping cart
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

And Janeway's wrong there. Life isn't a numbers game.
__________________
Akoochimoya, my indigenous ass.
teya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11 2013, 04:19 PM   #22
teya
Vice Admiral
 
teya's Avatar
 
Location: 2 mi S of Capt Braxton's shopping cart
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Deckerd wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post
SO = significant other

No, life isn't a numbers game. It's not legal, nor moral, to take a life to save another. If you can save 2 or three or 10, it's still not legal nor moral. And Janeway never made that argument.

We also don't put a value on a human life by killing someone less "useful" to save someone else we think more useful to society as a whole.
But Tuvix was a smarmy, irritating git. It was a win win situation getting rid of him.
Last time I checked, being a smarmy, irritating pit was not a crime mandating a death sentence.
__________________
Akoochimoya, my indigenous ass.
teya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11 2013, 04:20 PM   #23
Deckerd
Fleet Arse
 
Deckerd's Avatar
 
Location: the Frozen Wastes
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

It is when it's a television show.
__________________
They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance.
Deckerd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11 2013, 04:25 PM   #24
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Well it's a losing argument to try and persuade the Janeway camp about her complete and utter lack of morals in this episode. It's a good thing the replicators never broke down. Janeway might decide to play the numbers by cannibalizing a gold shirt for the greater good. Same logic she's applying to the Tuvix situation. Kill one person for the benefit of more.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11 2013, 04:34 PM   #25
BruntFCA
Commander
 
BruntFCA's Avatar
 
Location: A Mile High
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I always try to see situations from different prospectives and understand other peoples POV whether I agree with them or not but I've never understood the people that defend Janeway here, SHE F'N MURDERED A DUDE!!!! No matter how hard you try to twist the situation around it will never ever change the fact that she killed an innocent man. It really boggles my mind that some people actually think Janeway made the right decision.
__________________
"Well, I come from a long, long line of smartasses. Smartass is allergic to dumbass. It’s actually a physical allergy, as in you’re repulsed by dumbasses."
Josh Homme

Last edited by BruntFCA; April 11 2013 at 06:15 PM.
BruntFCA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11 2013, 04:37 PM   #26
Deckerd
Fleet Arse
 
Deckerd's Avatar
 
Location: the Frozen Wastes
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Of course she made the right decision. The other two were on contract for the whole season.
__________________
They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance.
Deckerd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11 2013, 04:46 PM   #27
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teya wrote: View Post
And Janeway's wrong there. Life isn't a numbers game.
I agree with you.

The needs of the many do not outweigh the needs of the few.

But isn't that sorta how we determine elections?

There is a fictional US President from a (nonsuperhero) comic book called Transmetropolitan which is all about a reporter identical to Hunter S Thompson (Who wrote Fear and Loathing in las Vegas) but in the Future... And in one of the early issues the President referred only to as "The beast" says this through a mist of scotch "Do you know what my job is? Do you know what my fucking job is, you pissant? My job is to make sure that 51 percent of the population fed, clothed and happy, and the other 49 percent can go fuck themselves."

Holy shit.

Isn't that what Rom Miteny got caught on tape saying?

Shhhhhhiiit.

Numbers is democracy.

Starfleet isn't about Democracy.

Captains prerogative.

Different Captains make different decisions.

Most would lose their ship for taking either side on this issue.

But Janeway did not have to worry about consequences.

Would she had made the same decision in the heart of the Federation?

Probably not.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11 2013, 04:47 PM   #28
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

there was no "right" decision here. Tuvix, through no fault of his own, was denying Tuvok and Neelix there right to life, but Tuvix had his right to be there as well. Many "dilemmas" in Trek are fake and poorly handled(see "dear doctor"), but this was not one of them. They created a situation where there really was no right answer.
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11 2013, 04:51 PM   #29
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Deckerd wrote: View Post
Of course she made the right decision. The other two were on contract for the whole season.
They would have been paid if they were on set or not?

Wait, do they have to be on screen for at least one second?

But if they had gotten written out of the series, and still been paid for all the episodes they were not in but contractually obligated to receive payment for... That would tally as a win?

Maybe not because Tuvix was near the end of the season, but if it was episode 4, those two would have done their happy dance.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11 2013, 04:51 PM   #30
Ryva Brall
Commander
 
Ryva Brall's Avatar
 
Location: Empok Nor
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I'm afraid I'm with teya, R. Star, and BruntFCA on this one. Janeway forced someone to kill himself. Against his will. It was for the good of the ship, but it was still murder. I like Janeway, but this decision has always, always disturbed me.

And I don't think the Doctor should be attacked for what he said. The fact that it was his programming that decided it was wrong is irrelevant. If he had been a flesh-and-blood physician, his decision would have been the same. Doctors don't kill people against their will.
__________________
Mentally unstable like a fox!
Ryva Brall is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
janeway

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:46 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.