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Old April 11 2013, 01:51 AM   #61
Mr. Adventure
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
And then there's the characters they have maybe heard of if they have kids who watch cartoons and stuff. Iron Man and Thor and the Silver Surfer and such used to be in that category, prior to becoming movie stars, but not anymore. (I saw Iron Man coloring books at a craft store the other day!)
It's funny hearing characters spoken of like that that have been around for 50 years.
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Old April 11 2013, 02:12 AM   #62
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

The Silver Surfer was in a movie but he was not a star.

(There's an impotence joke in there somewhere.)

Norrin came off as more of a bad ass in Breathless, even if it made Richard Gere seem illiterate.

And Joe Satriani probably made the Alien infamous for the better half of the 70s.

The 90s cartoon was softcore.
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Old April 11 2013, 02:16 AM   #63
Mr. Adventure
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Norrin came off as more of a bad ass in Breathless, even if it made Richard Gere seem illiterate.
I loved the Surfer in Breathless.
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Old April 11 2013, 02:51 AM   #64
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Times change. Mandrake the Magician used to be a household name. Nowadays, not so much!
As a child of the '80s, I remember Mandrake's stint as part of the Defenders of the Earth (King Features Syndicate's effort to pair up their big action characters into a toy line with a cartoon tie-in.)

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Old April 11 2013, 03:01 AM   #65
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

Mr. Adventure wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
And then there's the characters they have maybe heard of if they have kids who watch cartoons and stuff. Iron Man and Thor and the Silver Surfer and such used to be in that category, prior to becoming movie stars, but not anymore. (I saw Iron Man coloring books at a craft store the other day!)
It's funny hearing characters spoken of like that that have been around for 50 years.
"Around" doesn't mean ubiquitous, though. Something can be very well-known to the niche audience for its medium, but will remain obscure to the general public until it crosses over into a more pervasive medium. This happens all the time in science fiction -- new concepts that show up in the literature typically take a couple of decades to percolate out into popular culture. Back when the news of Dolly the cloned sheep first came out, you heard all these pundits talking about the unprecedented new ethical issues that cloning raised -- but science fiction had been exploring those very issues for thirty or forty years at that point.
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Old April 11 2013, 03:21 AM   #66
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Mr. Adventure wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
And then there's the characters they have maybe heard of if they have kids who watch cartoons and stuff. Iron Man and Thor and the Silver Surfer and such used to be in that category, prior to becoming movie stars, but not anymore. (I saw Iron Man coloring books at a craft store the other day!)
It's funny hearing characters spoken of like that that have been around for 50 years.
"Around" doesn't mean ubiquitous, though. Something can be very well-known to the niche audience for its medium, but will remain obscure to the general public until it crosses over into a more pervasive medium..
Exactly. They're "around" if you read comic books or watch animated series about superheroes, but if you grew up on Archie or Richie Rich instead, or were into sports or music or cars or Barbies or whatever. . . how would you be exposed to it?

My sister grew up reading Little House on the Prairie and Anne of Green Gables, not X-Men comics. Prior to the movies, I doubt she could have pulled Thor or Cyclops out of a lineup. Heck, my next door neighbors still don't know who Yoda is. (I admit that shocked me.) And my other next door neighbor didn't know the difference between the Green Hornet and Green Lantern . . . .

It is possible to overestimate how pervasive this stuff is.
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Old April 11 2013, 03:28 AM   #67
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

^Some years back, I flew out to Hollywood to pitch ideas to DS9 and I stayed with my cousin who lives in the area. I got to talking to him about how I'd sent in a spec script for TNG before sending in the one for DS9 that got me the invitation, and maybe mentioned something about possibly pitching for VGR as well, and so on... and eventually I realized, from his questions, that he had no idea that the various shows I was talking about were connected in any way to each other or to Star Trek. My cousin had worked in the film industry for decades (providing bicycle, skateboard, and roller-skate stunts and camera work for just about every movie and TV show that featured them), but he didn't know that there were multiple Star Trek series.

So, yeah. It's definitely possible to forget that other people aren't into the same things you are.
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Old April 11 2013, 03:32 AM   #68
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

I get it but it still sounds funny. Then again, I'm old enough to remember when 7-11 had dozens of comic titles on display.
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Old April 11 2013, 05:07 AM   #69
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

Yes, lots of people are ignorant about lots of things. That in no way means that everyone is ignorant about everything except you, which is basically what so many of you are trying to claim here.

Sure, there were a lot of people who didn't know who Iron Man was. You can probably cite all kinds of examples of that fact. But in no way, shape, or form does that mean that Iron Man was some obscure, unknown entity to people outside of comic book readers. A lot of people may not have been able to tell you his real name or anything at all about him other than "he's that hero with armor or something, yeah?," but he's not this complete and utter enigma either.

I mean, you can find people who've never heard of Superman, Jesus Christ, or Michael Jackson. Does that mean that those are all alien figures to the entirity of the world outside of comic book readers, religious devotees, or music aficionados?

Iron Man has been all over the place. Cartoons as far back as the 60s, numerous songs (including two of his villains in a song by Paul McCartney), Forbes magazine, and he's even been mentioned in numerous pop culture references on television and movies for ages. The same goes for Thor, the Flash, and loads of other examples used around here. Hell, some people even claim that Wonder Woman is a puzzle to the general public, which is even more absurd.

Again: Your own personal ignorance about something does not equate to the ignorance of the rest of the world; just because you may not have known something, that doesn't mean no one else knew, either. And that seems to be the basis for this whole spiel. Hell, outside of figures such as Michael Jordan, I couldn't tell you a damn thing about the sports world. Does that mean, by default, the general public is equally ignorant? No. And trying to say otherwise is completely and utterly ridiculous.
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Old April 11 2013, 05:22 AM   #70
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

The only point I'm making is that it doesn't matter whether audiences have prior familiarity with a character. It's just a basic responsibility of any story to introduce and define the characters and situations for the audience, even if it's a re-introduction of ones established in a previous work. So whether a character is well-known to the bulk of the audience should be irrelevant to how the storytellers approach the tale. The ideal is to treat every story as if it's someone's first exposure to the characters, because it almost certainly will be for at least a portion of your audience.
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Old April 11 2013, 05:36 AM   #71
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

I don't really feel like searching the thread for specific quotes, but a lot of people were bringing up the limited budget for TV when talking about superheroes on TV, I don't see that being that much of a problem. I think shows like the CSIs, Once Upon A Time, Supernatural, and the BSG reboot have shown that if you have the right resources you can still do some pretty impressive stuff on a TV budget. Sure it might not be as impressive as Avengers, but it's not totally impossible to get accurate representations of the comic book heroes powers on TV. I thought Smallville managed to good powers VFX over the year.
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Old April 11 2013, 05:46 AM   #72
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

The total budget for an episode of Night man was approximately 15 dollars an episode after they'd paid the cast and crew off with "free" pizza for lunch.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0128886/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
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Old April 11 2013, 06:46 AM   #73
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

Christopher wrote: View Post
The only point I'm making is that it doesn't matter whether audiences have prior familiarity with a character. It's just a basic responsibility of any story to introduce and define the characters and situations for the audience, even if it's a re-introduction of ones established in a previous work. So whether a character is well-known to the bulk of the audience should be irrelevant to how the storytellers approach the tale. The ideal is to treat every story as if it's someone's first exposure to the characters, because it almost certainly will be for at least a portion of your audience.
This is exactly the approach that Stan Lee took when he was running Marvel. Every comic book is somebody's first comic book. Granted that led to a lot of over the top flash backs and such that look quite dated and corny today, but it is still possible to do well.
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Old April 11 2013, 06:46 AM   #74
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

JD wrote: View Post
I don't really feel like searching the thread for specific quotes, but a lot of people were bringing up the limited budget for TV when talking about superheroes on TV, I don't see that being that much of a problem. I think shows like the CSIs, Once Upon A Time, Supernatural, and the BSG reboot have shown that if you have the right resources you can still do some pretty impressive stuff on a TV budget. Sure it might not be as impressive as Avengers, but it's not totally impossible to get accurate representations of the comic book heroes powers on TV. I thought Smallville managed to good powers VFX over the year.
That was me.

Frankly as I said before I didn't think Smallville had very good VFX, because got things like smoke demon Darkseid and a fight between Doomsday and Clark that happens off screen and that was the big thing that was built up for season 8.

Green Lantern and the Fantastic Four would be hard to do a live action movie, how would make those characters work on a TV budget? Would they just never use their powers or fight any of their iconic villains?

You can't have a good adaptation of something, if they can't do some of the basic things from the comics on the TV screen.

I think that is why Arrow, works as a TV show, because it deals with a guy without powers, fighting other guys without powers, its just a bunch of guys with gimmicks. Though frankly Arrow is only an okay show, its not great.

Christopher wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
Negotiable for you perhaps, but not me.
You've made your personal opinion clear, but obviously no television show or movie is made to satisfy the tastes of a single individual (aside from its own creator). I'm not talking about me, and I'm certainly not talking about you. I'm talking about the audience in the aggregate, because that's what's relevant when we're talking about the popularity or success of a work of mass entertainment.


If Star Trek had to cut out characters to work in another adaption, wouldn't that mean that something is missing in the adaption?
Well, aside from the fact that the word is adaptation rather than "adaption"... no. The word "adapt" means "change to fit a new context." It is not the purpose of an adaptation to exactly duplicate the original. If you want the original, just read or watch the original! The point of doing an adaptation is to create something that takes the concepts or characters of the original in a new and different direction, that offers a fresh angle or perspective on the ideas. Of course things are going to have to be changed when a work is adapted to a new medium or format. Often, characters will be dropped or added or combined or reinterpreted. It happens all the time.
Actually both words are valid, though one is far more common then the other:

http://grammarist.com/usage/adaption-adaptation/

So maybe you should be a bit more careful before you nitpick someone else's grammar.

And secondly by your logic, wouldn't all the changes made to Fantastic Four in their movies be okay? Doesn't cloud Galactus and corporate Dr. Doom change things to a point, that the work is no longer really the FF anymore? What about the Catwoman movie, shouldn't an adaptation at least honor the spirit of the original work?

That's the problems I had with the changes in Smallville, they changed from the comics and replaced with things that were less interesting. I don't have a problem changing things to make it work in another medium, as long as those changes are as interesting or more interesting than what was done in the comics, not less interesting. I had no problems with the changes to Sebastian Shaw and Whiplash in the movies, but I didn't like the changes to Dr. Doom in the movies and Darkseid in Smallville.



Christopher wrote: View Post
It's not missing, because it's still there in the original work. The adaptation is a new work, an alternative approach to the basic concept. It's the differences between versions that make them worth having. If they just copied each other exactly, that would be redundant.
Except if those characters play important role and you don't replace them with something interesting, can't it argued that the adaptation has suffered a bit? That is the problem I have with Smallville and the lesser comic book movies, they got rid of interesting ideas and replaced them with something less interesting.



Christopher wrote: View Post
The Trickster was in two episodes, yes, but supervillains were used throughout the second half of the series.
Actually only 3 villains from the comics were in the TV series and they were kinda paired downed versions of the characters. Trickster was the best of the change, TV Mirror Master and Captain Cold were okay, but not great.

Really "Pollux" was a a poor man's version of Reverse Flash, but since he was simpleton rather then a psychopath like the comic book Reverse Flash, he was far less interesting. There is an example of taking something and replacing it with something less interesting.

I would agree with this review: the show had its moments, but ultimately was a failed experiment, at best it was okay:

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/the_flash/news/?a=50957


Christopher wrote: View Post
Actually it was cancelled for a variety of reasons, including the high budget it demanded, a bad timeslot that went up against stiff competition on NBC and FOX, and frequent pre-emptions by news reports. (I still remember how annoyed I was that half of the Bill Mumy episode was pre-empted by a half-hour of Dan Rather talking about the minor and ultimately harmless heart problem that then-president Bush had been hospitalized for that day. They cut to the news report at the worst possible moment, just after a gun had gone off between two wrestling characters and before we found out which one had been shot. It was pretty easy to guess, of course, but what an aggravating moment to pre-empt the show!)
.
If high budget demands were part of the problem, doesn't prove my point?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Okay, but how many TV live action didn't have to leave things out or change things just to meet a TV budget?
Again, that doesn't matter. If you want something exactly like the comics, then just go read the comics. The point of adapting a work of fiction to a new medium is to attract a new, different audience, to expose the concept and characters to an audience that would never have experienced them in their original form. So of course it's not about pandering solely to the tastes of people who like the original version. It's about creating a new version that appeals to the audience of a different medium. Sure, it's good if you can create something that satisfies existing fans of the original as well as making the concept accessible to new fans, but the latter is usually more important -- particularly when you're adapting something like a comic book, which is read by thousands or at most tens of thousands of people, to TV or movies, which have audiences in the millions or tens of millions.
But now see that is the kind of the logic creates Catwoman movies, that an adaptation can change anything it wants, shouldn't an adaptation honor the spirit of the original work as best it can? I didn't think Smallville did that for the most part.

Christopher wrote: View Post
How many super hero TV shows have had great production values?
In comparison to other television shows of their eras? Several. The Adam West Batman had impressive visuals and production design and very impressive action for a 1960s sitcom, although the third-season budget was slashed and the production suffered. The Bixby Hulk was an elaborate production for its time with extensive location work and heavy stunt work making it a very expensive show. The Flash, as I've said, had cutting-edge VFX from some of the same people who worked on Star Trek: TNG; a superbly designed and executed Flash costume; and great set design. And I was quite impressed by the VFX on the short-lived 1991 Human Target series from the same producers as The Flash -- they did some extraordinary work with split-screen and doubling effects, rivaling the best work along those lines that had ever been done onscreen up to that time.
I think you are pretty generous if you are saying the Adam West show had good production values. Bad production values were part of the camp appeal of that show, there was a lot of paper mache on that show.

And could you really do something like Green Lantern and the Fantastic Four on a TV budget? Frankly those are tricky to do in a movie, it be impossible to do them on a TV budget at this point in time, unless they never use their powers, which kinda undermines the premise of these characters. Why would GL or Human Torch almost never use their powers and would you do the Thing on a TV budget or Mr. Fantastic's powers?

Likewise an Iron Man show, were Tony Stark barely ever puts on the armor doesn't feel like a good adaptation of the comics or sounds like an interesting show.

Again this why I don't care if DC has done more live action TV then Marvel, because to me most live action super hero TV shows were okay at best and god awful at worst. I have not seen one that has knocked my socks off, like Dark Knight did. That is the problem I have.

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Old April 11 2013, 12:53 PM   #75
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

Mr. Adventure wrote: View Post
I get it but it still sounds funny. Then again, I'm old enough to remember when 7-11 had dozens of comic titles on display.
I remember when they were twelve cents an issue.

(Ten-cent comics were slightly before my time.)
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