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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old April 10 2013, 07:34 PM   #451
Franklin
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

It's interesting to hear that Kirk was ordered to the Nibiru system. I was under the impression that he came across the planet on his own. Raises some questions. If Starfleet wanted Kirk to simply observe the civilization there, wouldn't Starfleet have done prior preliminary long-range scans of the planet and its makeup that would've shown the super volcano was brewing and the planet could be doomed? If so, then why send Kirk there to observe a planet die? I'm probably just overthinking it, I guess.
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Old April 10 2013, 07:43 PM   #452
Shaka Zulu
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

Christopher wrote: View Post
Well, I'm a member of the fanbase too, and I sure as hell don't feel "offended" or "screwed with." I don't feel I'm entitled to be told about a story before it comes out. On the contrary, I think it's good not to know too much in advance. What matters is the movie itself, the complete story it has to tell, not the advance publicity. I think modern society has gotten too preoccupied with publicity as an end in itself, obsessing with previews and trailers and spoilers and leaks to such an extent that it drowns out the actual story at the heart of it all. I mean, for Pete's sake, we've reached the point where we're getting promos for teasers for trailers for movies! It's ridiculous! I don't need all this foofarah in advance. It's not what matters. I'd be fine going into that theater in May and not having any clue what to expect.

Hell, the reason they call them "spoilers" in the first place is because people used to think it ruined the viewing experience to be told too much in advance. There is value in being surprised by a story. I think Abrams is absolutely in the right to try to restore that sense of mystery and surprise, to resist the modern pressures to spill everything about the movie months in advance. I'm not offended by his approach; I laud it. So you can damn well speak for yourself and not pretend that your excessive sense of self-entitlement represents the consensus of fandom as a whole.
THIS.

I wish that many of the fan base would find another sci-fi movie to watch, or stick with the older TV shows and movies (and fan shows like Star Trek: Phase II.)
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Old April 10 2013, 07:47 PM   #453
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Haven't got issue 4 yet, but an observation of those pages posted above. That picture of April in the brig in the comic is almost identical to the image from the movie of Harrison in the brig. April is even in the same pose as Harrison. The only real difference is that Kirk and Spock are on opposite sides in the comic than in the movie, and therefore April is looking to his right as opposed to Harrison looking to the left.
Well, we've seen that the artists for the Abramsverse comics rely heavily on photo reference. And that was pretty much the only publicly available photo of the Abramsverse Enterprise brig.
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Old April 10 2013, 07:50 PM   #454
Hartzilla2007
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

SoM wrote: View Post
See, Pike. That's what happens when you take someone who should be a Jr. Lt. at best and smuggled aboard your ship while suspended, and rather than throw him in the brig, proceed to make him first officer on the immediate mission, then bump him all the way up to Captain & CO permanently thereafter. Not exactly surprising if he's got an overdeveloped sense of entitlement from all that...
Yeah, I mean why should he be concerned that some guy who has been considered dead for 20 years just walked onto the bridge of the Federation flagship and managed to take the ship over and almost hand it over the the Klingons using a code that programmed into one ship that was decommissioned two years ago that for some reason was carried over to his ship?

Or why should he maybe pissed about the fact that the federation is not only allowing the Klingons to commit genocide but also are covering it up.

Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
This Star Trek universe is seriously dark and twisted compared to the one we saw in the 1960's - and things are about to take a sharp turn for the worse.
As opposed to the other one where a flag officer's response to Kirk possibly murdering a guy was to offer him a ground posting in exchange for covering it up, or the time a Starship captain violated the Prime Directive to get rich off a possible fountain of youth, or the federation not bothering to check if one of their member planets might be oppressing a group of its citizens.

Seriously the TOS era federation did some pretty shady things at times.
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Old April 10 2013, 08:01 PM   #455
The Wormhole
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

Franklin wrote: View Post
It's interesting to hear that Kirk was ordered to the Nibiru system. I was under the impression that he came across the planet on his own. Raises some questions. If Starfleet wanted Kirk to simply observe the civilization there, wouldn't Starfleet have done prior preliminary long-range scans of the planet and its makeup that would've shown the super volcano was brewing and the planet could be doomed? If so, then why send Kirk there to observe a planet die? I'm probably just overthinking it, I guess.
Based on what I skimmed over from the first 38 minutes of the movies screened in Brazil, it is stated in the movie that Kirk was ordered to Nibiru to watch the civilization die.

Christopher wrote: View Post
Well, we've seen that the artists for the Abramsverse comics rely heavily on photo reference.
That's pretty much true of IDW in general.
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Old April 10 2013, 09:30 PM   #456
Shaka Zulu
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Well, we've seen that the artists for the Abramsverse comics rely heavily on photo reference.
That's pretty much true of IDW in general.
And that's why the current comic books are better, art-wise, than the ones published by Gold Key, Marvel, and DC (Volume One of the DC Comics Star Trek title, Volume 2 and 3 of the Marvel ones.)
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Old April 11 2013, 03:57 AM   #457
Santa Kang
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Well, we've seen that the artists for the Abramsverse comics rely heavily on photo reference.
That's pretty much true of IDW in general.
And that's why the current comic books are better, art-wise, than the ones published by Gold Key, Marvel, and DC (Volume One of the DC Comics Star Trek title, Volume 2 and 3 of the Marvel ones.)
I find an over reliance on photo reference produces poor art.
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Old April 11 2013, 06:28 AM   #458
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

SoM wrote: View Post
SalvorHardin wrote: View Post
See, Pike. That's what happens when you take someone who should be a Jr. Lt. at best and smuggled aboard your ship while suspended, and rather than throw him in the brig, proceed to make him first officer on the immediate mission, then bump him all the way up to Captain & CO permanently thereafter. Not exactly surprising if he's got an overdeveloped sense of entitlement from all that...

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
SoM wrote: View Post

Presumably, the ideas are that (1) it wasn't just a backdoor to his Enterprise, it was actually in the core OS of all Federation starships and (2) it was never deleted, possibly because someone else who knew about it [Admiral Marcus? Section 31?] managed to prevent it being changed.

Hell, it may not have been April's *own* backdoor, but something he discovered that was already there.
Like say some sort of 5 digit computer code which can allow a person to hack another starship and oh I don't know make it lower its shields
Yeah. Did that scene seem as dodgy in the early 80s as it does now? I can't even open a free e-mail account with a five-character password, let alone override a ship capable of massive destruction!
Computer security is pretty poor in the future..lol


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Old April 11 2013, 06:59 AM   #459
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
"Friday's Child" is a complicated mess because the Federation wanted mining rights on the planet. If they are going to pump money (or some form of payment for the minerals and services) into that culture's economy, then it seems they see no problem with the PD in this case, and what Kirk is doing is preserving the Federation's position to secure the economic deal and drive off the Klingons.
But the PD is not all-or-nothing. It is where pre-contact societies are concerned, but it also applies to post-contact societies. In that context, it basically means that you can interact with other cultures so long as you don't force your own values and decisions on them, so long as you agree to let them practice their own laws and customs, make their own decisions about internal affairs, etc. (See TNG's "Justice." Why they made contact with such a backward society in the first place is a mystery, but once they had made contact, the Prime Directive still required them to respect local laws, which was why they didn't just break Wesley out and warp away.)
In regards to the TNG Prime Directive maybe, but possibly not in regards to the TOS Prime Directive.

The first reference to the Prime Directive occurs in the episode The Return of the Archons. [5]
The Prime Directive is explicitly defined in the Star Trek episode "Bread and Circuses," which is set in 2267:
“ "No identification of self or mission. No interference with the social development of said planet. No references to space or the fact that there are other worlds or civilizations." ”

it had been indicated to include purposeful efforts to improve or change in any way the natural course of such a society, even if that change is well-intentioned and kept completely secret. "Pre-warp" is defined as any culture which has not yet attained warp drive technology and is thus, implicitly, unaware of the existence of alien races. Starfleet allows scientific missions to investigate and secretly move amongst pre-warp civilizations as long as no advanced technology is left behind, and there is no interference with events or no revelation of their identity. This can usually be accomplished with hidden observation posts, but Federation personnel may disguise themselves as local sentient life and interact with them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Directive

That is why in Bread and Circuses Kirk comes up with his lie about his ship being somewhere at sea (which I guess JJ is taking literally in Into Darkness

I think the intent in the original series was that Starfleet couldn't go into primitive cultures and mess with them. If a planet managed to figure out there was space travel, and reached out to the Federation, then contact was okay or understood the concepts. If we used our culture now under the original series interpretation, the federation could contact or study Earth. We understand space travel, we are actively searching for life in our own solar system and beyond. If the Vulcan's landed today, it would affect our culture regardless of the technology they had, even if they didn't give it to us, we would eventually figure it out just by dealing with them. In TNG time period I think we would actually have to bump into the Enterprise before they would stop and say Hi. Although in TNG Starfleet was shown studying the Mintakans, which was a very primitive culture, and they got caught. That was a violation, that Picard was trying to fix, which is more along the lines of the original series interpretation.


In Pen Pals the PD became an absolute rule, yet in earlier episodes and later ones as previously mentioned, they argued laws should not be absolute. So I don't know how Picard works that out, given his absolute interpretation of the Prime Directive in Pen Pals, and the mis-interpretation of it in I Borg. When Picard had the chance to wipe out the Borg, he should taken the shot and infected them with the virus that Data and Geordi created. Kind of explains why Enterprise was ferrying diplomats during the Dominion War instead of being on the front lines, because Picard couldn't be counted on to act. He wasn't really trusted after Wolf 359 for a long time.


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Old April 11 2013, 11:16 AM   #460
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

Okay, I'm going with this: April found Botany Bay. Harrison was on the ship, and somehow wound up serving in Star Fleet intelligence a few years later. He gets mad at Star Fleet for not supporting April, and starts blowing things up.
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Old April 11 2013, 04:31 PM   #461
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

cbspock wrote: View Post
I think the intent in the original series was that Starfleet couldn't go into primitive cultures and mess with them.
Except that by using the judgmental word "primitive," you're playing into the very ethnocentric and colonialist assumptions that the PD is supposed to caution us against. The PD is about recognizing that it's wrong to define other cultures as "primitive" or inferior just because they have less technology -- that they are still just as capable of thinking for themselves and are better-qualified than you are to understand their own societies and find the right solutions to their problems.

This is why the 24th-century take on it in "Pen Pals" and especially "Homeward" is so ugly -- because it's forgotten that the PD is about respect for other cultures' equality and independence and has fallen back into the colonialist mentality of "They're too primitive and childish to think for themselves and so we have to make the decisions about their fate without giving them a say in the matter."


So I don't know how Picard works that out, given his absolute interpretation of the Prime Directive in Pen Pals, and the mis-interpretation of it in I Borg. When Picard had the chance to wipe out the Borg, he should taken the shot and infected them with the virus that Data and Geordi created.
Huh? That had nothing to do with the Prime Directive. That was about basic decency, about recognizing that Borg drones were victims rather than monsters and that it would be immoral to exterminate them.

Moreover, people keep forgetting that he did infect them with a disruptive meme: Hugh's individuality. The effect was the same: an entire population of drones was neutralized, taken away from the Collective. (Presumably whatever failsafes intervened to protect the rest of the Collective from the individuality meme would've been equally effective against the destructive program, and neither would've spread any farther.) It's just that they were liberated to think for themselves rather than mass-murdered.
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Old April 12 2013, 03:11 AM   #462
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

Well, after reading issue 4 I got mixed feelings on the series. It's better written than Countdown, but Countdown was better set-up for XI than this was for STID. What exactly did this set up for the movie? Spock is still dealing with trauma relating to Vulcan's destruction, and we likely know where the ship from the trailers came from ("This ship will not fit" "It will"). But otherwise, nothing. Hell, at the end we have Pike telling Kirk to forget everything that just happened which seems to me a fancy way of saying "nothing that happened here has any real relevance to the movie." The closest thing you can get to a reset button without resetting anything. Reminds me of Family Guy's joke about reset buttons "isn't this basically a middle finger to the audience?"
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Old April 12 2013, 04:21 AM   #463
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Well, after reading issue 4 I got mixed feelings on the series. It's better written than Countdown, but Countdown was better set-up for XI than this was for STID. What exactly did this set up for the movie?
There's some plausible speculation about that in the review thread in the Trek Literature forum. See particularly post #236. I haven't read the comic, just excerpts and spoiler discussions, but I think some things are being fairly clearly set up. Though naturally it'll be easier to see the connections after we've seen the film.

I don't think we should expect this comic to be a prelude in the exact same way that Countdown was, because it's not a lead-in to the exact same kind of story. The '09 movie's plot was driven by events that had happened in the 24th century "before" the events of the film. Therefore, it was simple enough for the preview comic to depict those events. Presumably the filmmakers aren't just copying the same formula -- there's no time travel this time, for one thing -- so naturally the nature of the prefacing work is going to be different, the lead-ins more subtle, perhaps.
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Old April 12 2013, 03:31 PM   #464
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

Christopher wrote: View Post
cbspock wrote: View Post
I think the intent in the original series was that Starfleet couldn't go into primitive cultures and mess with them.
Except that by using the judgmental word "primitive," you're playing into the very ethnocentric and colonialist assumptions that the PD is supposed to caution us against. The PD is about recognizing that it's wrong to define other cultures as "primitive" or inferior just because they have less technology -- that they are still just as capable of thinking for themselves and are better-qualified than you are to understand their own societies and find the right solutions to their problems.

This is why the 24th-century take on it in "Pen Pals" and especially "Homeward" is so ugly -- because it's forgotten that the PD is about respect for other cultures' equality and independence and has fallen back into the colonialist mentality of "They're too primitive and childish to think for themselves and so we have to make the decisions about their fate without giving them a say in the matter."


So I don't know how Picard works that out, given his absolute interpretation of the Prime Directive in Pen Pals, and the mis-interpretation of it in I Borg. When Picard had the chance to wipe out the Borg, he should taken the shot and infected them with the virus that Data and Geordi created.
Huh? That had nothing to do with the Prime Directive. That was about basic decency, about recognizing that Borg drones were victims rather than monsters and that it would be immoral to exterminate them.

Moreover, people keep forgetting that he did infect them with a disruptive meme: Hugh's individuality. The effect was the same: an entire population of drones was neutralized, taken away from the Collective. (Presumably whatever failsafes intervened to protect the rest of the Collective from the individuality meme would've been equally effective against the destructive program, and neither would've spread any farther.) It's just that they were liberated to think for themselves rather than mass-murdered.

The example Gene used, was the Spanish Missionaries and how they would go into an area and try to turn the local population into citizens of Spain, teach them a new religion, etc. It is judgmental. They do use the word primitive in their definition.

And what did Picard get for his bad decision...a bunch of rogue borg that still murdered colonists because they fell in with Lore. They also had the collective to deal with. If you are going to fight a war, you fight to win you don't drag it out. Like Kirk's definition of War in a Taste of Armageddon. Picard was looking for a clean solution, and war is never clean.

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Old April 12 2013, 04:00 PM   #465
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

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And what did Picard get for his bad decision...a bunch of rogue borg that still murdered colonists because they fell in with Lore.
It's nonsense to blame Picard for Lore's actions. If you save someone from getting hit by a car, and that person you saved later gets talked into joining a militant cult by its fanatical leader and used as a suicide bomber, you're not the one responsible for the deaths, because you couldn't have predicted the consequences of your act of kindness. I mean, you might just as well blame all the people who grew the food and made the medicines that kept the cult leader and the eventual bomber alive long enough to reach that point. It's nonsense. The only person responsible for Lore's crimes is Lore. He's the one who knew what he was doing and who made a deliberate choice to inflict harm.


They also had the collective to deal with. If you are going to fight a war, you fight to win you don't drag it out.
As I already said, whatever failsafes insulated the rest of the Collective from Hugh's individuality would've presumably also insulated it from the more destructive program. So it's erroneous to claim that using the destructive program would've successfully wiped out the Borg. It would've just killed the drones aboard Hugh's cube, or whatever linked cohort of cubes Hugh ultimately managed to infect, and made no more difference to the Collective as a whole than Hugh's individuality did. It wouldn't have accomplished more; it would've just dealt more death for no real gain.
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