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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old April 10 2013, 11:34 AM   #16
ZapBrannigan
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Re: What REALLY happened to Dr. Daystrom after 'The Ulitimate Computer

BillJ wrote: View Post
But we don't know whether this happened or not. I'm pretty sure Starfleet would've extensively tested the M-5 before putting it on a ship.
They did...

Wesley:
If the M-5 works under actual conditions as well as it has under simulated tests, it will mean a revolution in space technology as great as warp drive.

But clearly M-5 knew it was working in a simulator. They should have caused M-5 to mistake the simulator for the real thing. Then it would have shown its true colors, its true engrams I mean, sooner.

No, wait. They may well have let M-5 think the simulated tests were real, but within those sims, the unit was supposed to fire full phasers. And then aboard the Enterprise when told to play nice, it just refused to pull its punches-- this was a condition they never simulated. Interesting.

Now Starfleet has to explain the deaths of over 500 spacemen in peacetime. That goes beyond mere courts-martial and into the realm of a government changing hands in the next election.
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Old April 10 2013, 11:43 AM   #17
Metryq
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Re: What REALLY happened to Dr. Daystrom after 'The Ulitimate Computer

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
Starfleet should have tested M-5 by linking it to another computer-- a virtual simulator that the M-5 thinks is the real deal.
James P. Hogan addressed this in THE TWO FACES OF TOMORROW, a novel about the creation of the first "true" artificial intelligence. The story begins with an accident caused by a semi-intelligent computer performing an action that seemed like a good idea. The act was highly creative, but demonstrated a lack of "common sense" and judgment.

The dilemma is that computers of the same sort run the rest of human civilization. Going back is out of the question—that would sacrifice the many advances, economy and very lives of far too many people. And continuing with the current generation of computers is untenable following the revealing accident.

While trying to work out a solution, the reader is shown researchers working in the lab with a new generation AI that learns how to deal with the real world by working in a simulation driven by another computer. The problem is the same as the real world problem with the existing computers—reality is just too complicated to plot out in every facet. And putting a human in the loop to provide "judgment" defeats the purpose of using the computers to manage the volume of civilization's daily interactions.

So the next generation AI is placed in charge of a new O'Neill-style space colony, a smaller yet suitably detailed proxy of the world. This should protect Earth in case the experiment gets out of hand, but the AI evolves far faster than anyone had imagined possible...
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Old April 10 2013, 11:50 AM   #18
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Re: What REALLY happened to Dr. Daystrom after 'The Ulitimate Computer

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
That goes beyond mere courts-martial and into the realm of a government changing hands in the next election.
Fat Chance Productions presents: that happens only in simulations. In reality, the party in power that caused the debacle spins the whole thing in the media so that it becomes the fault of another political party that had nothing to do with it. Unlike M5, the guilty have no scruples to hamstring their ambitions.
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Old April 10 2013, 01:11 PM   #19
Marsden
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Re: What REALLY happened to Dr. Daystrom after 'The Ulitimate Computer

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
Rather than hook the M-5 unit up to the Enterprise and give it "varchully unlimited power!", Starfleet should have tested M-5 by linking it to another computer-- a virtual simulator that the M-5 thinks is the real deal. The Enterprise, outer space, and other starships would all be simulated in the virtual environment.

Starfleet officers would log on and play the game as if they were on their real ships, and only M-5 wouldn't know it was a virtual environment. Then when the unit went crazy and started killing people, all the lessons could be learned and nobody really dies.
They said they tested it, maybe they should have stranded it in the "recreation room"

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
Now Starfleet has to explain the deaths of over 500 spacemen in peacetime. That goes beyond mere courts-martial and into the realm of a government changing hands in the next election.
How would they find out about 500 deaths? We lost over 400 Vulcanians and a whole solar system to a germ, and then there's Nomad, they make this seem minor. Pluse this thing was a top secret, I'm sure the survivors would have been under orders of silence.

I don't think it's minor, just saying in that context, it might not seem as bad as it does to us. Also, this was actually Starfleet's fault rather than a space monster, so it would hurt, but I think the Federation Council, as I understand it, wouldn't be harmed but a bunch of admirals and a certain commodore would be in trouble. I think that's why Bob ended govenor of that backwater planet.
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Old April 10 2013, 01:22 PM   #20
Timo
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Re: What REALLY happened to Dr. Daystrom after 'The Ulitimate Computer

But clearly M-5 knew it was working in a simulator.
The point seemed rather to be that M-5 never had a clear idea of where it was working... It treated a simulation (the wargames) as reality. This suggests a childishly narrow worldview, while testing should already have pitted the computer against a wide variety of situations. Did none of those test scenarios deal with concepts like "untruth", "bluff", "accounting for human error" and "erring on the side of caution"?

Wesley might simply be saying that M-5 had handled the mechanistic routines of starship command well enough, and the wargames (plus the lead-in planetary survey mission) were the first time the computer faced complications. But that doesn't make sense from today's point of view, because odd complications should be more easily tested virtually than physically, and it's those that M-5 would realistically have learned to handle before entering the wargames, rather than things like tactics or power distribution.

From today's vantage point, it looks as if M-5 really was a splendid success originally, meeting all the criteria in rigorous testing - and simply snapped later on. Unfortunately, the snapping happened at a rather crucial moment, but we don't need to assume that the circumstances of that moment had anything to do with the snapping. M-5 might simply have been doomed to remain sane for a limited period of time only, by design and default, what with being burdened with the memory engrams of a snapping-prone man.

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Old April 10 2013, 02:41 PM   #21
Marsden
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Re: What REALLY happened to Dr. Daystrom after 'The Ulitimate Computer

Yes, and perhaps it never had so much power at it's disposal in previous testing. Maybe it's "brain" was too overloaded and then the defect set in, it may have continued for years at that lower power and been fine with no noticable problems, but when that extra power got into it's system it was like a drug and couldn't get enough and wanted more.
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Old April 10 2013, 08:08 PM   #22
Shaka Zulu
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Re: What REALLY happened to Dr. Daystrom after 'The Ulitimate Computer

Timo wrote: View Post
But clearly M-5 knew it was working in a simulator.
The point seemed rather to be that M-5 never had a clear idea of where it was working... It treated a simulation (the wargames) as reality. This suggests a childishly narrow worldview, while testing should already have pitted the computer against a wide variety of situations. Did none of those test scenarios deal with concepts like "untruth", "bluff", "accounting for human error" and "erring on the side of caution"?

Wesley might simply be saying that M-5 had handled the mechanistic routines of starship command well enough, and the wargames (plus the lead-in planetary survey mission) were the first time the computer faced complications. But that doesn't make sense from today's point of view, because odd complications should be more easily tested virtually than physically, and it's those that M-5 would realistically have learned to handle before entering the wargames, rather than things like tactics or power distribution.

From today's vantage point, it looks as if M-5 really was a splendid success originally, meeting all the criteria in rigorous testing - and simply snapped later on. Unfortunately, the snapping happened at a rather crucial moment, but we don't need to assume that the circumstances of that moment had anything to do with the snapping. M-5 might simply have been doomed to remain sane for a limited period of time only, by design and default, what with being burdened with the memory engrams of a snapping-prone man.

Timo Saloniemi
Marsden wrote: View Post
Yes, and perhaps it never had so much power at it's disposal in previous testing. Maybe it's "brain" was too overloaded and then the defect set in, it may have continued for years at that lower power and been fine with no noticable problems, but when that extra power got into it's system it was like a drug and couldn't get enough and wanted more.
Metryq wrote: View Post
ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
Starfleet should have tested M-5 by linking it to another computer-- a virtual simulator that the M-5 thinks is the real deal.
James P. Hogan addressed this in THE TWO FACES OF TOMORROW, a novel about the creation of the first "true" artificial intelligence. The story begins with an accident caused by a semi-intelligent computer performing an action that seemed like a good idea. The act was highly creative, but demonstrated a lack of "common sense" and judgment.

The dilemma is that computers of the same sort run the rest of human civilization. Going back is out of the question—that would sacrifice the many advances, economy and very lives of far too many people. And continuing with the current generation of computers is untenable following the revealing accident.

While trying to work out a solution, the reader is shown researchers working in the lab with a new generation AI that learns how to deal with the real world by working in a simulation driven by another computer. The problem is the same as the real world problem with the existing computers—reality is just too complicated to plot out in every facet. And putting a human in the loop to provide "judgment" defeats the purpose of using the computers to manage the volume of civilization's daily interactions.

So the next generation AI is placed in charge of a new O'Neill-style space colony, a smaller yet suitably detailed proxy of the world. This should protect Earth in case the experiment gets out of hand, but the AI evolves far faster than anyone had imagined possible...
Timo wrote: View Post
But clearly M-5 knew it was working in a simulator.
The point seemed rather to be that M-5 never had a clear idea of where it was working... It treated a simulation (the wargames) as reality. This suggests a childishly narrow worldview, while testing should already have pitted the computer against a wide variety of situations. Did none of those test scenarios deal with concepts like "untruth", "bluff", "accounting for human error" and "erring on the side of caution"?

Wesley might simply be saying that M-5 had handled the mechanistic routines of starship command well enough, and the wargames (plus the lead-in planetary survey mission) were the first time the computer faced complications. But that doesn't make sense from today's point of view, because odd complications should be more easily tested virtually than physically, and it's those that M-5 would realistically have learned to handle before entering the wargames, rather than things like tactics or power distribution.

From today's vantage point, it looks as if M-5 really was a splendid success originally, meeting all the criteria in rigorous testing - and simply snapped later on. Unfortunately, the snapping happened at a rather crucial moment, but we don't need to assume that the circumstances of that moment had anything to do with the snapping. M-5 might simply have been doomed to remain sane for a limited period of time only, by design and default, what with being burdened with the memory engrams of a snapping-prone man.

Timo Saloniemi
Marsden wrote: View Post
Yes, and perhaps it never had so much power at it's disposal in previous testing. Maybe it's "brain" was too overloaded and then the defect set in, it may have continued for years at that lower power and been fine with no noticeable problems, but when that extra power got into it's system it was like a drug and couldn't get enough and wanted more.
Reminds me of why the Turing Agency was created in the Sprawl Trilogy by William Gibson, and with the need to regulate them (with the option to erase them with an EMP if they get out of hand.) Starfleet, the United Earth Republic, the Federation and its other member races my want to do something similar if AI research continues and AI's become commonplace.
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Old April 10 2013, 08:27 PM   #23
Ronald Held
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Re: What REALLY happened to Dr. Daystrom after 'The Ulitimate Computer

Perhaps Daystrom was rehabilitated but never reclaimed the success he had with duotronics. Multironics obvious never made it further in Starfleet.
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Old April 11 2013, 02:17 AM   #24
CoveTom
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Re: What REALLY happened to Dr. Daystrom after 'The Ulitimate Computer

In "Whom Gods Destroy," Kirk implies that the inhabitants of Elba Two are the only remaining cases of mental illness in the galaxy, and Spock says, "A total of fifteen incurably insane out of billions..." That would seem to imply that Dr. Daystrom was rehabilitated. He certainly wasn't at the Elba Two facility.
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Old April 11 2013, 02:21 AM   #25
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Re: What REALLY happened to Dr. Daystrom after 'The Ulitimate Computer

CoveTom wrote: View Post
In "Whom Gods Destroy," Kirk implies that the inhabitants of Elba Two are the only remaining cases of mental illness in the galaxy, and Spock says, "A total of fifteen incurably insane out of billions..."
One of those things I tend to ignore because it doesn't make much sense.
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Old April 11 2013, 02:50 AM   #26
Metryq
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Re: What REALLY happened to Dr. Daystrom after 'The Ulitimate Computer

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
Reminds me of why the Turing Agency was created in the Sprawl Trilogy by William Gibson, and with the need to regulate them (with the option to erase them with an EMP if they get out of hand.)
I'll have to check out this trilogy. However, Spartacus, the AI in THE TWO FACES OF TOMORROW is not conveniently in one place. Its drones learn to protect themselves from various kinds of weapons with armor plating and other defenses. Spartacus even manages to outwit a thermo-nuclear bomb rigged to destroy the entire space station as a last resort. The real bonus of the story is that it is not the cliche tale of an "evil" machine that decides humanity must be destroyed, a la THE TERMINATOR.

As for Daystrom, he created a subspace greeting card company with the pitch "Send an n-gram today," and the tagline, "Thinking of you!"
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Old April 11 2013, 05:10 AM   #27
Caje
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Re: What REALLY happened to Dr. Daystrom after 'The Ulitimate Computer

BillJ wrote: View Post
CoveTom wrote: View Post
In "Whom Gods Destroy," Kirk implies that the inhabitants of Elba Two are the only remaining cases of mental illness in the galaxy, and Spock says, "A total of fifteen incurably insane out of billions..."
One of those things I tend to ignore because it doesn't make much sense.
I agree. Although given that 'mental illness' is a social construct, it's not inconceivable that the definition would change significantly over time, especially given how many different cultures existed in the Trek universe. Perhaps they just had a narrow definition of it then.
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Old April 11 2013, 07:16 AM   #28
ZapBrannigan
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Re: What REALLY happened to Dr. Daystrom after 'The Ulitimate Computer

Caje wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
CoveTom wrote: View Post
In "Whom Gods Destroy," Kirk implies that the inhabitants of Elba Two are the only remaining cases of mental illness in the galaxy, and Spock says, "A total of fifteen incurably insane out of billions..."
One of those things I tend to ignore because it doesn't make much sense.
I agree. Although given that 'mental illness' is a social construct, it's not inconceivable that the definition would change significantly over time, especially given how many different cultures existed in the Trek universe. Perhaps they just had a narrow definition of it then.
I hardly think mental illness is just a social construct. That smacks of ideological silliness.

But anyway, Spock says "A total of fifteen incurably insane out of billions is not what I would call an excessive figure." [Emphasis added.]
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Old April 11 2013, 11:17 AM   #29
Shaka Zulu
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Re: What REALLY happened to Dr. Daystrom after 'The Ulitimate Computer

Metryq wrote: View Post
The real bonus of the story is that it is not the cliche tale of an "evil" machine that decides humanity must be destroyed, a la THE TERMINATOR.

Same thing with Neuromancer, the first novel in the Sprawl Trilogy-Wintermute (the AI that figures in the story) doesn't really want to take over the planet, IIRC.
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Old April 11 2013, 12:46 PM   #30
Greg Cox
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Re: What REALLY happened to Dr. Daystrom after 'The Ulitimate Computer

Maybe Daystrom ended up at the same clinic Lenore Karidian got shipped off to.
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