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Old April 9 2013, 11:25 PM   #31
Christopher
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

Greg's right. Marvel may be doing better in movies, but for a generation, DC has had the decided advantage on television, both in live action and animation. In the past 30 years, Marvel's live-action TV output has consisted of three revival movies of the Bixby/Ferrigno Hulk, two of which were failed backdoor pilots; more failed pilots for Generation X, Power Pack, Nick Fury, and Man-Thing; a lame Glen Larson series based on Malibu's NightMan; the mediocre X-Men knockoff Mutant X; and the short-lived Blade: The Series.

In the same period, in addition to the seven shows Greg mentioned (there were actually two versions of Human Target), DC's live-action output has also included the syndicated Superboy and Swamp Thing series, as well as several unaired pilots (JLA, Global Frequency, Aquaman, Wonder Woman).
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Old April 9 2013, 11:43 PM   #32
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post

We still have not seen a Flash movie or a Wonder Woman movie. Pretty well every major Marvel character has gotten a movie and now Ant Man and Guardians of the Galaxy are getting movies before Flash and Wonder Woman. That is the problem I have, even when DC was on top, they did nothing with a lot of characters, just focusing on their two big franchises.
To be fair, there was a live-action FLASH television series launched immediately in the wake of the 1989 BATMAN movie. And BIRDS OF PREY and THE HUMAN TARGET and LOIS & CLARK and, of course, ten years (!) of SMALLVILLE. And now ARROW.

Granted, those were TV, not movies, but it's not as though DC was letting the rest of its list go fallow. They just seemed to be focusing more on the small screen than the big one.

(And how many live-action Marvel TV shows were there during that period?)
One little problem, I think generally super heroes don't work on the small screen and I think most of those shows were garbage.

Really Flash and Birds of Prey didn't last past one season, Smallville was pretty and it had the reverse problem, it went on way too long to the point that Clark faced and defeated most of his rogues gallery before becoming Superman.

The problem with live action super hero TV shows, it seems they have to make things less epic and more mundane just to make things work on a TV budget, that's why we got that lame smoke demon Darkseid on Smallville.

I think if they tried to X-Men on the small screen, it would end being like the Mutant X TV show, if they tried to do Justice League on the small screen, it would end up like the Justice League TV movie from 1997. Arrow is okay, but that is its more straight forward concept, no one really has any super powers, so its easier to make that stuff work on a TV budget.

I would rather see a Flash movie and Wonder Woman movie, then another attempt at a Flash TV show and Wonder Woman TV show, especially after that bad Wonder Woman pilot.

Frankly I even think the cartoon shows based on super heroes generally do a better job at capturing the spirit of the comics then the live action TV shows.
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Old April 9 2013, 11:55 PM   #33
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Whereas I have only ever read one single issue of any comic book ever. Something about Juggernaut and Jean Grey wandering around a sewer and Onslaught coming back (and me going, "who the heck is Onslaught?").
60 year old Charles Xavier wanted to shtup his 16 year old student Jean Grey (issue One, page one. It happened.). Charles repressed these feelings until the pressure of all that resentiment, that he was too classy to be a paedophile manifested (Split personality, you dig?) into the Omega Level threat "Onslaught".

jayceee wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
The only reason any one knew who Spider-Man was before the Rami movie was becuae of the Electric Company. That fucker taught me how to read and write.
I grew up watching the first Spiderman cartoon from the late 1960's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-...7_TV_series%29
The first time I saw the cartoon, in 1980, my first magnicient utterance was "Holly shit! That fucker can talk! I thought Spidey was mute!"
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Old April 10 2013, 12:02 AM   #34
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

TheSeeker wrote: View Post
I started feeling old when my friend's wife told me everything she new about the X-Men came from the 90s cartoon when she was a kid. I was in my 20s when that cartoon first aired and I have never seen a single episode.
It's great, though, especially for a kids cartoon. It's where my knowledge came from as well. It's faithful to the comic and successfully captures its themes and characters. I would even go so far (as off topic as this is) to recommend that you check it out.
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Old April 10 2013, 12:19 AM   #35
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

You just have to get through the first season and wait for their stupid made up character which the focus groups declared that the kids would swell around dies.
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Old April 10 2013, 12:29 AM   #36
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
This hasn't stopped them from blatantly meddling not only in the film adaptations but in the comics themselves, trying to recast the whole pantheon in the image of Nolan's Batman and in turn rendering the DC superheroes all but unrecognizable.
Huh? Give me one example. Here are the non-Batman live-action DC superhero films that have come out since Batman Begins:

Superman Returns
Watchmen
Jonah Hex
Green Lantern


Please explain to me how any one of those was in any way influenced by Nolan's Batman. Superman Returns was an overly fannish homage to the Richard Donner Superman films. Watchmen was a slavish adaptation of the comics. Jonah Hex was, reportedly, a supernatural-themed Western that resembled Will Smith's Wild Wild West more than anything else. And Green Lantern was a garish, larger-than-life space opera. There's no Nolan influence in any of those. And there didn't seem to be any in the David Kelley Wonder Woman TV pilot either.

The only DC properties in live action to show any influence from the Nolan Batfilms are the upcoming Man of Steel produced by Nolan himself, which is getting very positive advance reviews, and Arrow on television, which is one of the biggest hits of the season.
Sorry, I should have clarified that. I was referring to the whole "Flashpoint/New 52" mess where they rebooted the whole DC comic universe itself (and totally botched it).
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Old April 10 2013, 12:37 AM   #37
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
The problem with live action super hero TV shows, it seems they have to make things less epic and more mundane just to make things work on a TV budget, that's why we got that lame smoke demon Darkseid on Smallville.
So what was Fantastic Four's excuse for Galactus?
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Old April 10 2013, 12:48 AM   #38
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

Mr. Adventure wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
The problem with live action super hero TV shows, it seems they have to make things less epic and more mundane just to make things work on a TV budget, that's why we got that lame smoke demon Darkseid on Smallville.
So what was Fantastic Four's excuse for Galactus?
Incompetent screen writers and the fact that Fox is kinda of cheap? Its not like Galactus would have been better on a TV budget. Don't get me wrong putting a comic book in movie form doesn't in of itself make it truer to the comic, but from my experience the movies tend to be truer to the spirit of the comics then the live action TV shows.

This many not be a fair comparison, but I don't think Smallville ever came as close to capturing the spirit of the comics as the first two Superman movies did. Plus Smoke Demon Darkseid is almost as bad cloud Galactus.
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Old April 10 2013, 12:52 AM   #39
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

Tosk wrote: View Post
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The above posts are pretty bang on, but I also think that DC have less top flight characters.
I don't think that's much of an excuse though. Part of Marvel's success has been taking second-tier heroes (by necessity, seeing as almost all of Marvel's headliners were already taken by various studios) and making them household names. Nerds knew Iron Man, but he sure wasn't particularly well known before his movie. Or Thor.

Can you believe we'll be seeing an Ant-Man movie before too long? And D̶̶C̶ WB can't even get a Wonder Woman movie off the ground.

Edit: No, you're right. I was thinking purely the 'Marvel Cinematic Universe', but the OP talks about all the other franchises too, so apologies for that. All that typing just to make myself look foolish.
You make a good point though, Marvel have 'spun' their characters well.

Mind you, I'd rather try to sell even Antman over The Martian Manhunter or Hawkman...
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Old April 10 2013, 12:54 AM   #40
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post

We still have not seen a Flash movie or a Wonder Woman movie. Pretty well every major Marvel character has gotten a movie and now Ant Man and Guardians of the Galaxy are getting movies before Flash and Wonder Woman. That is the problem I have, even when DC was on top, they did nothing with a lot of characters, just focusing on their two big franchises.
To be fair, there was a live-action FLASH television series launched immediately in the wake of the 1989 BATMAN movie. And BIRDS OF PREY and THE HUMAN TARGET and LOIS & CLARK and, of course, ten years (!) of SMALLVILLE. And now ARROW.

Granted, those were TV, not movies, but it's not as though DC was letting the rest of its list go fallow. They just seemed to be focusing more on the small screen than the big one.

(And how many live-action Marvel TV shows were there during that period?)
One little problem, I think generally super heroes don't work on the small screen and I think most of those shows were garbage.

Really Flash and Birds of Prey didn't last past one season, Smallville was pretty and it had the reverse problem, it went on way too long to the point that Clark faced and defeated most of his rogues gallery before becoming Superman.

The problem with live action super hero TV shows, it seems they have to make things less epic and more mundane just to make things work on a TV budget, that's why we got that lame smoke demon Darkseid on Smallville.

I think if they tried to X-Men on the small screen, it would end being like the Mutant X TV show, if they tried to do Justice League on the small screen, it would end up like the Justice League TV movie from 1997. Arrow is okay, but that is its more straight forward concept, no one really has any super powers, so its easier to make that stuff work on a TV budget.

I would rather see a Flash movie and Wonder Woman movie, then another attempt at a Flash TV show and Wonder Woman TV show, especially after that bad Wonder Woman pilot.

Frankly I even think the cartoon shows based on super heroes generally do a better job at capturing the spirit of the comics then the live action TV shows.
I'm the complete opposite here, I really that TV would be a better home for superheroes. You might not have as much of the spectacle, but it would give you more time to really display the depth and history of the characters, and the universes that they inhabit.
As for why Marvel has been more successful than DC, I really think they've been lucky enough to get people who seem to have a better handle on the characters than DC has.
I love the Nolan Batman movies, but even they aren't really that great of a representation of the Batman comics. Sure the comics do have more realistic characters like Joker and Two-Face, but they also have fantastic characters like Clayface, Poison Ivy, and Man-Bat.
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Old April 10 2013, 01:00 AM   #41
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

It might be an idea if DC mixed its formats for the Justice League film. I could see movie Green Lantern, Batman and Superman alongside the 'Arrow' Green Arrow and maybe another couple of TV stars - Wonder Woman and Flash perhaps ?
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Old April 10 2013, 01:01 AM   #42
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

I want tv that believes in spandex.

Screw realism.

Just put this in brightly coloured tights for fracks sack.
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Old April 10 2013, 01:08 AM   #43
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

JD wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post

To be fair, there was a live-action FLASH television series launched immediately in the wake of the 1989 BATMAN movie. And BIRDS OF PREY and THE HUMAN TARGET and LOIS & CLARK and, of course, ten years (!) of SMALLVILLE. And now ARROW.

Granted, those were TV, not movies, but it's not as though DC was letting the rest of its list go fallow. They just seemed to be focusing more on the small screen than the big one.

(And how many live-action Marvel TV shows were there during that period?)
One little problem, I think generally super heroes don't work on the small screen and I think most of those shows were garbage.

Really Flash and Birds of Prey didn't last past one season, Smallville was pretty and it had the reverse problem, it went on way too long to the point that Clark faced and defeated most of his rogues gallery before becoming Superman.

The problem with live action super hero TV shows, it seems they have to make things less epic and more mundane just to make things work on a TV budget, that's why we got that lame smoke demon Darkseid on Smallville.

I think if they tried to X-Men on the small screen, it would end being like the Mutant X TV show, if they tried to do Justice League on the small screen, it would end up like the Justice League TV movie from 1997. Arrow is okay, but that is its more straight forward concept, no one really has any super powers, so its easier to make that stuff work on a TV budget.

I would rather see a Flash movie and Wonder Woman movie, then another attempt at a Flash TV show and Wonder Woman TV show, especially after that bad Wonder Woman pilot.

Frankly I even think the cartoon shows based on super heroes generally do a better job at capturing the spirit of the comics then the live action TV shows.
I'm the complete opposite here, I really that TV would be a better home for superheroes. You might not have as much of the spectacle, but it would give you more time to really display the depth and history of the characters, and the universes that they inhabit.
See that sounds good in theory, but you are making things less fantastic and more mudane in the process, what are you really capturing? How would you make X-Men or JLA work on a TV budget? I do you avoid things like Smoke Demon Darkseid and shallow made for TV villains who are used because they are easier to do then comic book villains (ex: most the meteor freaks from Smallville.) Look at the climax of season 8 of Smallville, the big fight between Clark and Doomsday happens off screen, that seems like a good example of the TV budget robbing the script of any real drama.

Really how many good live action super hero shows there been?

You would likely have to use animation to make most super heroes work on TV, but then you get into the problems of the animation age ghetto.

I think some things work better as movies and some things work better as TV shows and super heroes generally work better in movies.
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Old April 10 2013, 01:39 AM   #44
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
Sorry, I should have clarified that. I was referring to the whole "Flashpoint/New 52" mess where they rebooted the whole DC comic universe itself (and totally botched it).
But how is that an imitation of the Nolan films in any way? There's still plenty of fantasy and sci-fi, the Batman continuity has barely been changed from what it was before, and The New 52 has been widely critiqued for its sexist and pandering portrayals of characters like Catwoman, Starfire, and Voodoo, which doesn't seem anything like the Nolan films. The New 52 wasn't about imitating the movies, it was about responding to the growing market for digital comics by giving new digital-only readers a jumping-on point for the whole continuity.


The Overlord wrote: View Post
See that sounds good in theory, but you are making things less fantastic and more mudane in the process, what are you really capturing? How would you make X-Men or JLA work on a TV budget?
Good writing. At their best, superhero stories are about characters and ideas most of all. Maybe a live-action TV show can't serve the action as well as a comic, animated series, or movie can, but if the writing is strong enough, it won't need to. The Bixby-Ferrigno Hulk series had immensely less action than the comics -- just two Hulk-outs per episode, usually lasting just a minute or two each -- but the writing and character work were strong enough that it's admired to this day as one of the best comics adaptations to live action.


I do you avoid things like Smoke Demon Darkseid and shallow made for TV villains who are used because they are easier to do then comic book villains (ex: most the meteor freaks from Smallville.) Look at the climax of season 8 of Smallville, the big fight between Clark and Doomsday happens off screen, that seems like a good example of the TV budget robbing the script of any real drama.
Well, that's not really a fair example, since that was a CW show with a much smaller budget than a show on a major network might get -- particularly since 8 years' worth of cast and crew raises meant that the budget available for FX and action was a smaller proportion of the total. Also, it's worth noting that Smallville's FX and action improved greatly in the 9th season -- not because they got more money, but because the action sequences were designed more creatively so they got more bang for the buck.

Really how many good live action super hero shows there been?
About as many as you'd expect per Sturgeon's Law, maybe around 10% of the whole. No worse that the percentage of good shows in any other genre.


You would likely have to use animation to make most super heroes work on TV, but then you get into the problems of the animation age ghetto.
Sadly true. I find it startling that, nearly a generation after Batman: TAS proved how adult and sophisticated animation could be, there even still is such a thing as the animation age ghetto. You'd think people would've figured it out by now.
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Old April 10 2013, 02:02 AM   #45
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Re: Why is DC so far behind Marvel in terms of movies?

I think Bat in the Sun has a better handle on the DCU than Warner does. It would be interesting to see what they could do with some good writing and a decent budget.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8NpfhsI-OE
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