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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old April 8 2013, 11:54 PM   #76
Danger Ace
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Vanyel wrote: View Post
One thing I want to know: What keeps a super secret agency, that is not accountable to anyone but itself, from taking over the Federation (covertly or overtly) in order to protect it?
Their power and effectivness lay in them working in the shadows and that is a limiting factor in-and-of itself. For them to rise to power and exert themselves as a political force of control they would have to shed much of what allows them to do what they do and transform into a whole different beast. That is not something they could do unnoticed and without allies.
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Old April 9 2013, 12:04 AM   #77
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Star Fleet Command had sanctioned the mission with the Son'a, set up the duck blind mission with a cloaked ship and even pulled officers from certain ships to assist (Data). They retracted their support for the plan after Picard got all high and mighty and subverted their attempts..
Starfleet Command never retracted their support, the Federation Council temporarily suspended the operation in order to undertake a review. I believe (ymmv) after the review a second collector would have been produced, the Baku relocted, and the particales harvested for the benefit of the Federation's people.

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
TNG's "Insurrection" with Admiral Doughtery sanctioning the removal of the Ba'ku to get ...
It was my take from repeatedly watching the movie, that it was the Federation Council (and not Doughtery) that sactioned the removial of the Baku, and the collection of the medically beneficial particales. Doughtery was brought in at some point to run the program, but he wasn't making policy decisions.
and working with a known Dominion ally during the Dominion War
I wonder about this, the Sona were producing "the white," but it was never stated that the Sona were making it for the Dominion. Riker said that the Sona were producing ketracel white as a narcotic, suggesting that they were selling the white to the general population.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Becuase Section 31 conducts covert operations supposedly in defense of it, many of which could bite the federation in the ass if they were found out so they should have to get authorization from their freaking government before they do that kind of stuff.
I don't agree.

If S31 were undertaking activities that the Federation governing body wouldn't authorize, in order to defend the Federation. What purpose would it serve to approach the Council for permission?

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Old April 9 2013, 12:16 AM   #78
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

R. Star wrote: View Post
Actually that makes the Federation's involvement in this make even more sense then. Not only will this get us great medical technology which will save lives for the war,
no it won't a fountain of youth is useless in a war as all the de-aging in the world doesn't stop a phaser set on kill or what ever the Dominion uses.

but it takes a potential ally away from the Dominion.
Why wouldn't the Son'a just take their particles and tell the federation to suck it?

As for trading with the neutral S'ona? That actually makes perfect sense. They're neutral
No their not they are providing the Dominion with a necessary component of their war machine how the hell is that being neutral?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
If S31 were undertaking activities that the Federation governing body wouldn't authorize, in order to defend the Federation. What purpose would it serve to approach the Council for permission?
Besides doing it on their own probably being illegal as hell?
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Old April 9 2013, 01:18 AM   #79
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

no it won't a fountain of youth is useless in a war as all the de-aging in the world doesn't stop a phaser set on kill or what ever the Dominion uses.
Watch the movie again. Dougherty and Crusher both stated it would provide countless medical advances... like say Geordi's eyes regenerating... even without the age mumbo jumbo.

Why wouldn't the Son'a just take their particles and tell the federation to suck it?
The context I got is the collector's gonna be over that planet gathering particles for this stuff indefnitely, applying them to scientific purposes once gathered. If they tell the Feds to "suck it" as you oh so eloquently suggest, they lose their supply.

No their not they are providing the Dominion with a necessary component of their war machine how the hell is that being neutral?
By that logic you would approve Germany's use of unrestricted submarine warfare in both world wars? All neutral means is you're not in the fighting. Franco termed it "non-belligerent" during World War 2 and even though he was openly supporting the Axis, providing men to fight in German uniform, the Allies left him alone.
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Old April 9 2013, 03:32 AM   #80
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
If S31 were undertaking activities that the Federation governing body wouldn't authorize, in order to defend the Federation. What purpose would it serve to approach the Council for permission?
Besides doing it on their own probably being illegal as hell?
Remember Hartzilla2007, the people of the Federation, through Starfleet, have no access to the Founders themselves. All Starfleet can do is kill and capture their slave proxies. The sickness devised by S31 gave the people of the Federation access to the people who ran the show in the Dominion.

Notice that I said "the people of the Federation," not "the governing body of the Federation." Was what S31 did strictly speaking legal, doubtful. Was what S31 did correct, yes.

Your turn Hartzilla2007, please explain to me how using a biological weapon against the ruling species of the Dominion is bad, while it's (seemingly) perfectly okay to throw chunks of antimatter at their slaves?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
no it won't a fountain of youth is useless in a war as all the de-aging in the world doesn't stop a phaser set on kill or what ever the Dominion uses.
But it would help in the treatment of non-fatal casualties, you'd be able to return them to service faster. Plus, I at least think the primary use for the particles would be in civilian sector for treatments.

R. Star wrote: View Post
Why wouldn't the Son'a just take their particles and tell the federation to suck it?
The context I got is the collector's gonna be over that planet gathering particles for this stuff indefinitely, applying them to scientific purposes once gathered. If they tell the Feds to "suck it" as you oh so eloquently suggest, they lose their supply.
Think of it like Saudi Arabia.

The Saudi's have tremendous amount of oil under their soil, but they drill no oil wells. They sell drilling rights to others (British, American, Chinese), then when the oil comes out of the ground it belongs to the Saudis, and they sell it to the people who drilled the wells. Those people build pipelines over Saudi territory to the nearest port facility, and the Saudi charge them money to do so. The Saudi tax the port facilities too.

If the Sona tell the Federation to "suck it," they would not have access to the any of particles that belong entirely to the Federation.

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Old April 9 2013, 03:51 AM   #81
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Actually that makes the Federation's involvement in this make even more sense then. Not only will this get us great medical technology which will save lives for the war,
no it won't a fountain of youth is useless in a war as all the de-aging in the world doesn't stop a phaser set on kill or what ever the Dominion uses.

but it takes a potential ally away from the Dominion.
Why wouldn't the Son'a just take their particles and tell the federation to suck it?

As for trading with the neutral S'ona? That actually makes perfect sense. They're neutral
No their not they are providing the Dominion with a necessary component of their war machine how the hell is that being neutral?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
If S31 were undertaking activities that the Federation governing body wouldn't authorize, in order to defend the Federation. What purpose would it serve to approach the Council for permission?
Besides doing it on their own probably being illegal as hell?

supplying one side with drugs while offering to supply the other side with medical technology is pretty much THE definition of neutral. The Son'a were in it for themselves. Picard's actions helped push the Son'a into being actual allies of the Dominion.
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Old April 9 2013, 03:53 AM   #82
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

I don't think Gene ever imagined a Section 31 and I think that it made for interesting fodder in Deep Space Nine, I wouldn't change anything except going into Sloan's mind at the end of the series. What really gets me is that this wasn't in response to the Dominion threat. That Section 31 had always existed really got on my nerves. It's not Gene's future, despite being necessary in the 24th Century.
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Old April 9 2013, 08:46 AM   #83
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Vanyel wrote: View Post
One thing I want to know: What keeps a super secret agency, that is not accountable to anyone but itself, from taking over the Federation (covertly or overtly) in order to protect it?

With The collaboration between StarFleet Command and Section 31 we can presume they are accountable to StarFleet Command and the Admiralty. Section 31 is outside StarFleet Intelligence and Starfleet security. I believe Section 31 is only invested in protecting Earth and humanity above all else. They are sanctioned in the first Earth starfleet charter. Taking over the entire Fed would be a challenge with the hundreds of worlds and not every starfleet vessel is run only by humans. They could theoretically take over Earth and by extenstion the Fed like that one Admiral did in DS9 Paradise Lost. But expect a resitance nd secession from the Fed if that happened.
Outside of the books, and I'm going by what I've read hear in this thread, Starfleet Command had no knowledge of Section 31. Whether the books are canon is still a debate as pieces of the books have appeared in some series.

Aside from that a covert take over of the Federation is a strong possibility from an organization that is so super secret. They could get their own man in the Presidency, their own people in key positions in the Federation Council. Someone they control, the power behind the throne.

It's not unprecedented. In the history of the United States First Lady Edith Wilson, wife of President Woodrow Wilson who had had a major stroke, controlled what he saw and who saw him. She controlled what legislation "he" pushed for. For all intents and purposes she was running the Executive Branch.

With S31 guys in places of power, S31 would have control of the Federation Government and the Federation. Any S31 agent who thought it was wrong, having never existed in the first place would be killed, any Starfleet officer as well.

Rome fell from within before it was conquered. An over simplification, yes, but it is still basically true.

Danger Ace wrote: View Post
Their power and effectivness lay in them working in the shadows and that is a limiting factor in-and-of itself. For them to rise to power and exert themselves as a political force of control they would have to shed much of what allows them to do what they do and transform into a whole different beast. That is not something they could do unnoticed and without allies.
Being in the shadows is not limiting, it's empowering. They do have the ability to blackmail, and like I said to put their own people in key positions. The best way to protect something is to control it. Someone in S31 would eventually realize that in order to truly protect the Federation, they must take over its government. Covertly, the power behind the throne. And if they do a good job they could be like Egypt's Hatshepsut, and come out in the open.

This is how my mind works at 2:45 in the morning.
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Last edited by Vanyel; April 9 2013 at 09:08 AM.
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Old April 9 2013, 02:17 PM   #84
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Your turn Hartzilla2007, please explain to me how using a biological weapon against the ruling species of the Dominion is bad, while it's (seemingly) perfectly okay to throw chunks of antimatter at their slaves?
If we Ignore the fact that genocide is wrong not ifs ands or buts and isn't anywhere near waging a conventional war against soliders, then we have becuase it didn't actually help at all, and probably would have blown up in the federation.

Want to know why it wouldn't have helped BECUASE THE WAR WAS F@#KING OVER by the point Odo offered the cure so all he did was stop one battle which probably wouldn't have even been about to happen if the Founder leading their forces wasn't half nuts from dying and as such would have been thinking about self preservation instead of going out in the blaze of glory.


R. Star wrote: View Post
Why wouldn't the Son'a just take their particles and tell the federation to suck it?
The context I got is the collector's gonna be over that planet gathering particles for this stuff indefinitely, applying them to scientific purposes once gathered. If they tell the Feds to "suck it" as you oh so eloquently suggest, they lose their supply.
No it basically came off as a one and done, no indefinite collection at all, what with the rings breaking up in the simulations and Ru'afo thinking he can go through with it, murder all the witnesses and be gone before the federation knew what had happened.

That plan kind of falls apart if he had to stay in the area a long while seeing as the federation would likely send someone to check on Dougherty after Riker got done talking with the federation council especially after the Son'a shot at them on the way to do that.

sonak wrote: View Post
supplying one side with drugs while offering to supply the other side with medical technology is pretty much THE definition of neutral. The Son'a were in it for themselves. Picard's actions helped push the Son'a into being actual allies of the Dominion.
It sounds to me more like the Son'a only talked to the feds so they wouldn't wonder why a Dominion supplier and thus possible ally who uses illegal WMDs and conquers people is poking around a nice place to put a secret base that could be used to attack federation planets and is ominously orbiting over a possibly pre-warp civilization with a big scary thing which may or may not look like its killing everyone on the planet depending on if they turned it on yet or not and led the feds to pulling a Kirk on their asses.
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Old April 9 2013, 06:29 PM   #85
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
BECUASE THE WAR WAS F@#KING OVER
Except it wasn't.

The Founders hadn't surrendered at that point. The Dominion forces hadn't stopped hostilities. The JemHadar had no orders to stand down.

The Cardassians (who had switched sides) were on the verge of being attack by the Dominion.

Without the bargining chip of the cure, Starfleet would have engaged in a battle whose end result is completely unknown.

So how was the war (in any way) "over."
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Old April 9 2013, 08:59 PM   #86
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

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I start off every episode of DS9 with a moment of silent praise for RDM and company for giving us Section 31.
I don't. What was a "well-meaning" creation meant to correct some obvious flaws became every writers favorite boogey-man. And has the majority of fandom bending over backwards trying to explain every morally questionable action as being taken by Section 31.

Much like The Measure of a Man, it was fun once but led to incredible stupidity down the road.
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Old April 9 2013, 09:13 PM   #87
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
BECUASE THE WAR WAS F@#KING OVER
Except it wasn't.

The Founders hadn't surrendered at that point. The Dominion forces hadn't stopped hostilities. The JemHadar had no orders to stand down.

The Cardassians (who had switched sides) were on the verge of being attack by the Dominion.

Without the bargining chip of the cure, Starfleet would have engaged in a battle whose end result is completely unknown.

So how was the war (in any way) "over."
Becuase the Founder pretty much admitted they weren't going to win the battle she just decided to go out ion the blaze of glory becuase she was going to die anyway and figured she would just spite the Federation and it's allies by giving them a bitter victory.

Now she may have considered surrender if she wasn't dying, hell we know the Dominion would likely cave into whatever the Federation wanted to save a Founder, so all they would really need to do is capture her which they already had at that point.

And I still can't believe people are still defending a plan that only worked becuase Dukat went nuts. If he was still in charge the quadrant would have been screwed thanks to Section 31. or hell even Damar aka the guy who once convinced Weyoun to try to kill a Founder (Yes the Dominion thinks Odo counts).
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Old April 9 2013, 11:19 PM   #88
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

The biggest problem I have with the whole disease thing is that S31 allowed Bashir to know they did it. Bashir almost certainly would have been able to figure out a cure - maybe not in time to save Odo, or even the Founders in general - and he would definitely have suspected S31 (he did, after all), but they confirmed it. Bashir is the most TNG-ish of the DS9 cast (even more than O'Brian and Worf, somehow), and so of course he has to go on some big moral crusade - and the worst of it is, he told Odo.

Now the Founders know exactly how everything went down. Sure, the Federation gave them the cure, but they were also the cause of the disease. You know that a bunch of the new, exiting diseases Bashir goes on to cure after the show have to come from the Dominion, seeking revenge, no matter how much Odo is influencing them.
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Old April 10 2013, 01:59 AM   #89
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Vanyel wrote: View Post
One thing I want to know: What keeps a super secret agency, that is not accountable to anyone but itself, from taking over the Federation (covertly or overtly) in order to protect it?
Their stated purpose was to protect the Federation. Section 31's mission is to protect democracy, even if they themselves don't practice it. Converting the Federation into either a overt dictatorship or a puppet state would defeat Section 31 reason for existence.

S31 (by the example of Sloan) are zealots, they are true believers.

Look at it this way, Section 31 was formed before the Federation was, they've had two centuries to execute a coup, and mold the Federation in their own image, but in two centuries this never happen.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
BECUASE THE WAR WAS F@#KING OVER
Except it wasn't.
Becuase the Founder pretty much admitted they weren't going to win the battle she just decided to go out ion the blaze of glory becuase she was going to die anyway and figured she would just spite the Federation and it's allies by giving them a bitter victory.
Meaning the Dominion was still fighting, ergo the war wasn't "over."


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Old April 10 2013, 04:53 AM   #90
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

BillJ wrote: View Post
Danger Ace wrote: View Post
I start off every episode of DS9 with a moment of silent praise for RDM and company for giving us Section 31.
I don't. What was a "well-meaning" creation meant to correct some obvious flaws became every writers favorite boogey-man. And has the majority of fandom bending over backwards trying to explain every morally questionable action as being taken by Section 31.

Much like The Measure of a Man, it was fun once but led to incredible stupidity down the road.

could you elaborate on that last comparison? Did you mean because of the "hologram rights" thing that was inspired by it later? Because if you did, then we are on the same page.
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