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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old April 7 2013, 06:21 AM   #211
sayonara maru
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

R. Star wrote: View Post
I'd say it was a combination of INS and NEM having their problems along with the cast just visibly getting older. Whatever you want to say about NuTrek they are all attractive young people.
Agreed. That made seeing picard go mario andretti in his subaru and Ellen Ripley (in insurrection) that much more hilarious

Can we say midlife crisis?

Last edited by sayonara maru; April 7 2013 at 06:47 AM.
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Old April 7 2013, 06:38 AM   #212
sayonara maru
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

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I think the ball was dropped with GEN. That was one awkward, strange film that just doesn't sit right no matter how you slice it. And this is from someone who sees a lot of good in GEN. So, you had millions of people watching TNG, which was a character driven sci-fi drama thingy, and the first feature film is half about Kirk, who has nothing to do with TNG, Data plays with his emotion chip, and the ship you've identified the show with for 7 years is sacked.
They didn't do anything with the characters, and de-branded TNG somewhat by crashing the ship. Really, nothing significant happens with the characters until NEM, by which point those millions of people had long since stopped caring. They stopped telling their stories. Should have had the wedding and Data's death in the first film. And just kept giving reasons to care or be interested in these characters while the crazy sci fi thing is happening.
I agree that neither INS or NEM are to blame, but TNG had lots of places to go.
This is kind of what I mean. You raise a good point about the most significant parts of star trek happening with Nemesis.. But when you think about it, just changing the dynamic isnt really enough to say you're going into new territory.

Example:
-First Contact was great but would have been better if they used the Borg Storyline from Star Trek Destiny. Here would be significant "new territory" since it closes out the borg arc

-Doing something significant with the Q continuum (like they lose their omnipotence and simply become immortals stranded on the planet in innsurrection. Closure to the Q and plenty of material for the extended universe to play with.

-William Shatner wrote a book called "The Return" which was centered directly after Star Trek Generations. If you subtract the ridiculous borg origin story, the general premise of the romulans resurrecting him would have been a better centerpiece to Star Trek Nemesis..

My point is even ideas like those wouldnt come from the TNG writing team. Id wager they were just burnt out.. and when that happens to any show, sharks start to jump and pigs start to fly..

I also agree that by the time insurrection and nemesis rolled around, the general audience had lost interest in star trek. First Contact while the best of the new films, really did lose steam. Plus there was interest in other franchises to consider (star wars was hot and heavy, firefly was popular.. I think battle star galactica had spun up again)

Whats also sad about the newtrek movies is there werent really any memorable lines like in legacy trek ("KHAAAANNN!", "You klingon bastards! you killed my son", "You will, and always have been.. my friend")

Have high hopes for JJ Abrahms though.. Star Trek 2009 is in my 10 ten.. I cant wait for this summers sequel
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Old April 9 2013, 01:05 AM   #213
Danger Ace
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?
Both. The fact they had two bombs back-to-back plus "Enterprise" disillusioning audiences on television.
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Old April 9 2013, 01:28 AM   #214
Galileo7
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

Danger Ace wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?
Both. The fact they had two bombs back-to-back plus "Enterprise" disillusioning audiences on television.
Agree.
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Old April 9 2013, 07:21 PM   #215
Allyn Gibson
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

sayonara maru wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?
Neither.. the TNG franchise literally had no where else to go. The Insurrection and Nemesis movies were great on their own...But they just didnt add anything to the franchise that couldnt be seen on one of the hour episodes.
That's the real problem with all four of the Next Generation films. None of them break new ground with the characters or the universe. They're simply two hour long episodes with a budget.
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Old April 9 2013, 08:53 PM   #216
Danger Ace
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

sayonara maru wrote: View Post
Neither.. the TNG franchise literally had no where else to go.
No where else to go ... but UP! Especially considering Nemesis followed a lackluster effort such as Insurrection (a title which was a misnomer btw). It took a special kind of ineptitude to drive away even the most loyal die-hards. Look at the box-office where it made little more than its budget WORLDWIDE! Not even the most staunch Trekkies could not stomach more than one theatrical viewing.

The Insurrection and Nemesis movies were great on their own...
I'm sorry but that is over-the-top revisionism. I know box-office results are not barometers of quality but they do indicate to what level a film connected with audiences and reveals whether a film had "legs" (sustained interest of movie-goers). Nemesis was a box-office gimp. It did worse, far worse than Star Trek V: The Final frontier despite a substantially wider release (about +500 screens).


But they just didnt add anything to the franchise that couldnt be seen on one of the hour episodes.
I agree with that. They didn't, but it's debatable to what extent (if any) that general audiences or fans want change in their "Star Trek." Much of the DS9 criticisms seems centered on folks not wanting any ripples upon the pristine waters of Trek.

...Data making the ultimate sacrifce ...
Sorry, no credit for the "ultimate sacrifice" when Lt. Data has a (introduced within the same film) backup. That wasn't a foreshadowing of Data's impending sacrifice it was a full blown annoncement via mega-phone, "DON"T WORRY, WE'RE GONNA "KILL" LT. DATA BUT AS YOU CAN PLAINLY SEE WE HAVE A SPARE READY TO GO. SO PLEASE ENJOY THIS RIPE-OFF OF "WRATH OF KAHN" (MINUS, OF COURSE, ALL THE ORGANIC ELEMENTS OF DRAMA THAT MADE "WRATH OF KAHN" SO SPECIAL TO BEGIN WITH!)"
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Old April 9 2013, 09:47 PM   #217
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

I'd have to say Insurrection sunk the TNG films. I don't dislike the movie, but it doesn't do anything for me. When I went to see the INS, it was in a full theater and I could tell it didn't do anything for a lot of people in the theater either, especially when I overheard people talking about what they thought afterward.

INS killed any momentum the TNG films had after FC. By the time NEM came around, four years later, no one cared anymore. The theater I went into was only half-full. There were also newer and better film franchises emerging by then. It's as simple as that.
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Old April 9 2013, 09:59 PM   #218
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

Insurrection broke the Cardinal Rule of sequels: go bigger than the previous installment. And if you can't go bigger, go bigger in another direction.

When it's "just another adventure" people start wondering what's the point of going to see this story in theater when there are stories just like it on TV? It's what also did in TFF.

The only difference with the TOS films was that TFF didn't flop quite as bad as NEM, the TOS movies (excluding TMP) cost less, TNG was keeping interest in Star Trek not only alive but increasing, and there was a 25th Anniversary to make the audience nostalgic. The TOS movies also had the Genesis Trilogy to fall back on, so TFF looked more like a freak accident that people could forget. The TNG movies didn't have that same batting average to back them up after INS and NEM performed the way they did.
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Old April 10 2013, 04:59 AM   #219
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
sayonara maru wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?
Neither.. the TNG franchise literally had no where else to go. The Insurrection and Nemesis movies were great on their own...But they just didnt add anything to the franchise that couldnt be seen on one of the hour episodes.
That's the real problem with all four of the Next Generation films. None of them break new ground with the characters or the universe. They're simply two hour long episodes with a budget.

Data's emotion chip?

Riker and Troi getting married?

Riker moving on to a different command?

Data dying?

Enterprise being destroyed?

if you compare this to the TOS movies, TNG arguably did more stuff to change it up. In TOS, you got Spock's death which was quickly undone, Kirk's promotion which was undone eventually, Kirk getting a son which was undone, the Enterprise being destroyed, and... Sulu becoming a captain in the last movie.
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Old April 10 2013, 06:50 AM   #220
Maurice
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

^^^Three of those couldn't undone because they happened in the last movie. As to the emotion chip, they "turned it off" in the 2nd TNG film and effectively forgot it thereafter. Hardly any better a track record than the TOS films. Getting a new ship of a different design is hardly changing things up.
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Old April 10 2013, 03:42 PM   #221
sonak
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

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^^^Three of those couldn't undone because they happened in the last movie. As to the emotion chip, they "turned it off" in the 2nd TNG film and effectively forgot it thereafter. Hardly any better a track record than the TOS films. Getting a new ship of a different design is hardly changing things up.

fair enough, but I'm just pointing out, that if you compare the two movie series, the "TOS did more to change things up" is largely a myth.

By STVI, the entire crew except for Sulu is still on an Enterprise together, no matter what their ranks or titles are at that point.
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Old April 10 2013, 04:03 PM   #222
Lord Garth
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

I'd say the Enterprise-E is more of a change than the Enterprise-A. At least with the E, it's a constant reminder that it's not the same ship.

The A looks exactly the same on the outside. The interior looks a bit different but it would've been updated in TFF anyway, with or without the suffix, because William Shatner wanted to update the look. And then Nick Meyer changed it again. In TUC, it would be very easy to forget that it hasn't been the same ship all along.

The Enterprise-E doesn't look or feel like it's just some updated version of the D. It's not cut from the same cloth at all. To quote Worf, "It will not be the same. The Enterprise I knew is gone."
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Old April 10 2013, 04:14 PM   #223
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

You know my problem with the movies was that we already had 7 seasons with these guys.

A lot of stories had already been told.

The movies are an extension of the TV show, but they never really shook anything up - with the possible exception of the destruction of the Enterprise D. They really needed to take risks in the movies.

They attempted to do some stuff with Data but there was a lot of backtracking in INS & NEM with his character. I 'm with Lord Garth, I never warmed to the Enterprise E either. The ship was supposed to look good from all angles but I think its the worst hero ship we've had in hindsight.

And in Nemesis, only Picard & Data have a plot - everyone else is just wallpaper...
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Old April 10 2013, 04:59 PM   #224
sonak
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

Lord Garth wrote: View Post
I'd say the Enterprise-E is more of a change than the Enterprise-A. At least with the E, it's a constant reminder that it's not the same ship.

The A looks exactly the same on the outside. The interior looks a bit different but it would've been updated in TFF anyway, with or without the suffix, because William Shatner wanted to update the look. And then Nick Meyer changed it again. In TUC, it would be very easy to forget that it hasn't been the same ship all along.

The Enterprise-E doesn't look or feel like it's just some updated version of the D. It's not cut from the same cloth at all. To quote Worf, "It will not be the same. The Enterprise I knew is gone."

I don't remember that quote. When does he say that?
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Old April 10 2013, 05:11 PM   #225
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Re: What sunk the TNG movie franchise: Insurrection or Nemesis?

"The Way of the Warrior", the fourth season premiere of DS9 when Worf joins the series. Specifically, it's the scene where he and O'Brien are talking in the Promenade.
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