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Old April 7 2013, 05:13 AM   #121
sidious618
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Re: Roger Ebert is dead...

the G-man wrote: View Post
It's cute how many of the same people defending Ebert's politicizing his reviews are the same people who had a fit over the idea of Orson Scott Card writing Superman, despite the fact there's no evidence whatsoever that Card would insert his views into the comic book.
This is awful. Card equates gay people with pedophiles. Ebert has never done anything so inflammatory and you should be ashamed of yourself for making the comparison. Why you'd come into a memorial thread to say such a thing is beyond me.
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Old April 7 2013, 05:59 AM   #122
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Re: Roger Ebert is dead...

Deadline's Pete Hammond wrote a lovely eulogy piece for Roger, here.
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Old April 7 2013, 12:21 PM   #123
{ Emilia }
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Re: Roger Ebert is dead...

sidious618 wrote: View Post
the G-man wrote: View Post
It's cute how many of the same people defending Ebert's politicizing his reviews are the same people who had a fit over the idea of Orson Scott Card writing Superman, despite the fact there's no evidence whatsoever that Card would insert his views into the comic book.
This is awful. Card equates gay people with pedophiles. Ebert has never done anything so inflammatory and you should be ashamed of yourself for making the comparison. Why you'd come into a memorial thread to say such a thing is beyond me.
What Sidious said. It's honestly disgusting.

It's also sad to see that American politics are so divided these days that even the memorial thread for one of your greatest movie critics turns into such a ridiculous debate.
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Old April 7 2013, 02:04 PM   #124
Shaka Zulu
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Re: Roger Ebert is dead...

{ Emilia } wrote: View Post
sidious618 wrote: View Post
the G-man wrote: View Post
It's cute how many of the same people defending Ebert's politicizing his reviews are the same people who had a fit over the idea of Orson Scott Card writing Superman, despite the fact there's no evidence whatsoever that Card would insert his views into the comic book.
This is awful. Card equates gay people with pedophiles. Ebert has never done anything so inflammatory and you should be ashamed of yourself for making the comparison. Why you'd come into a memorial thread to say such a thing is beyond me.
What Sidious said. It's honestly disgusting.

It's also sad to see that American politics are so divided these days that even the memorial thread for one of your greatest movie critics turns into such a ridiculous debate.

Welcome to what Fox News hath wrought upon the USA.
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Old April 7 2013, 03:50 PM   #125
the G-man
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Re: Roger Ebert is dead...

sidious618 wrote: View Post
the G-man wrote: View Post
It's cute how many of the same people defending Ebert's politicizing his reviews are the same people who had a fit over the idea of Orson Scott Card writing Superman, despite the fact there's no evidence whatsoever that Card would insert his views into the comic book.
This is awful. Card equates gay people with pedophiles. Ebert has never done anything so inflammatory and you should be ashamed of yourself for making the comparison. Why you'd come into a memorial thread to say such a thing is beyond me.
The right to free speech isn't based on whether the speech is politically unpopular, something you agree with or what you choose to call "inflammatory."

Card said/wrote politically unpopular controversial things. Ebert did as well.

In both cases it was wrong to argue the writer should be punished or to argue that he was wrong to make his statements simply because he was being "poltical."

Furthermore, in the case of Card, he made the statements outside the job in question (the Superman story), not as part of the job (Ebert's reviews). Therefore, basing employment on same is especially ridiculous.

In addition, I am hardly the person who started dragging politics into this. I was responding to what others wrote, which was political and took up about 1-2 pages of this thread. My criticism was not one towards Ebert (in fact I posted about enjoying his writing earlier in the thread [April 4 2013, 10:48 PM]). It was directed towards the hypocrisy of posters such as yourself, who attempt to decide what should and should not be said based on whether you, personally, agree with it.

Case in point, as noted above, there were about two pages of political meandering before I chimed in with my "awful" comment. At no time did you (or Zulu for that matter) complain about the thread getting political. It was only when I pointed some apparent hypocrisy from certain left leaning posters that suddenly things were "too political."

And, of course, that political debate was after several pages of people arguing like SW v LotR nerds over how the thread was titled.

So stop acting like this thread was a big love in until I made that comment. And try standing up for diversity of thought once in a while.
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Old April 7 2013, 04:49 PM   #126
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Re: Roger Ebert is dead...

Fox News is awful but not primarily responsible for our ideology-ridden culture; it's been an accelerating problem since at least the 1960s.
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Old April 7 2013, 05:17 PM   #127
sidious618
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Re: Roger Ebert is dead...

the G-man wrote: View Post
sidious618 wrote: View Post
the G-man wrote: View Post
It's cute how many of the same people defending Ebert's politicizing his reviews are the same people who had a fit over the idea of Orson Scott Card writing Superman, despite the fact there's no evidence whatsoever that Card would insert his views into the comic book.
This is awful. Card equates gay people with pedophiles. Ebert has never done anything so inflammatory and you should be ashamed of yourself for making the comparison. Why you'd come into a memorial thread to say such a thing is beyond me.
The right to free speech isn't based on whether the speech is politically unpopular, something you agree with or what you choose to call "inflammatory."

Card said/wrote politically unpopular controversial things. Ebert did as well.

In both cases it was wrong to argue the writer should be punished or to argue that he was wrong to make his statements simply because he was being "poltical."

Furthermore, in the case of Card, he made the statements outside the job in question (the Superman story), not as part of the job (Ebert's reviews). Therefore, basing employment on same is especially ridiculous.

In addition, I am hardly the person who started dragging politics into this. I was responding to what others wrote, which was political and took up about 1-2 pages of this thread. My criticism was not one towards Ebert (in fact I posted about enjoying his writing earlier in the thread [April 4 2013, 10:48 PM]). It was directed towards the hypocrisy of posters such as yourself, who attempt to decide what should and should not be said based on whether you, personally, agree with it.

Case in point, as noted above, there were about two pages of political meandering before I chimed in with my "awful" comment. At no time did you (or Zulu for that matter) complain about the thread getting political. It was only when I pointed some apparent hypocrisy from certain left leaning posters that suddenly things were "too political."

And, of course, that political debate was after several pages of people arguing like SW v LotR nerds over how the thread was titled.

So stop acting like this thread was a big love in until I made that comment. And try standing up for diversity of thought once in a while.
The fact that you regard equating gay people with pedophiles as "unpopular" speech and not dangerous and destructive is shocking. While there was a political battle it was nowhere near as vulgar as what you did. Disgusting.
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Old April 7 2013, 06:40 PM   #128
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Re: Roger Ebert is dead...

In both cases it was wrong to argue the writer should be punished or to argue that he was wrong to make his statements simply because he was being "poltical."
---G-Man.

Absolutely correct. It might make the back-and-forth debate a little less interesting, but since Ebert championed civil debate and original thinking, we can survive that. Democrats and Republicans MIGHT see the other's side. But if we're pitting conservatives versus liberals, in my mind that's probably less potential for progress. But much more gridlock.

Speaking as somebody who's voted three different ways, including independent, I think Michael Medved has a clumping habit which handicaps the points he's trying to make. To use one example, he'll call out Hollywood for churning out violent films. But then he will clump FRIDAY the 13th with, ahem, more ambitious films like TRUE GRIT or SAVING PRIVATE RYAN. So he can sabotage his argument and miss the forest at times.

And yet.....and still.....

We could have been anything that we wanted to be.
It's not too late to change.
I'd be delighted to give it some thought.
Maybe you and me could.....oh, who am I kidding????
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Old April 7 2013, 06:45 PM   #129
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Re: Roger Ebert is dead...

the G-man wrote: View Post
Card said/wrote politically unpopular controversial things. Ebert did as well.
There's a colossal difference between supporting and funding homophobic causes that play an active role in denying fellow citizens basic rights and humane treatment and expressing a liberal-progressive viewpoint while reviewing FROM JUSTIN TO KELLY.

That moral equivalence stuff isn't going to fly when one man is a well-known and active anti-gay bigot and the other was nothing more than a social liberal on many issues who told people if a two-hour movie was great or sucked.
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Old April 7 2013, 07:04 PM   #130
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Re: Roger Ebert is dead...

wow. i didn't think this thread could get anymore disrespectful. and then to decide to compare Ebert to someone like orson scott card? utterly pathetic.
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Old April 7 2013, 11:55 PM   #131
the G-man
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Re: Roger Ebert is dead...

cooleddie74 wrote: View Post
the G-man wrote: View Post
Card said/wrote politically unpopular controversial things. Ebert did as well.
There's a colossal difference between supporting and funding homophobic causes that play an active role in denying fellow citizens basic rights and humane treatment and expressing a liberal-progressive viewpoint...
Only because you strongly agree with the latter and despise the former.

The whole point of free speech is to respect the right to say controversial things, even extreme things, so those views are tested in the marketplace of ideas.

Twenty years ago, definitely thirty years ago, Card's view on homosexuality was about as mainstream as Ebert's viewpoint on, for example, socialized medicine (which is what it was often called back then in large part because it was so reviled).

Fortunately, at least in the case of Card's views, popular opinion has changed.

It changed in no small part because people didn't censor or demand that what was then considered an "extremist" viewpoint (that gays should marry) be silenced as controversial.

Free speech and the free exchange of ideas isn't about silencing unpopular or even extreme viewpoints because the simple fact of the matter is that anyone can eventually find even a correct opinion labeled extreme.

And cloaking it in the canard that it is okay to silence Card because his views are anti-freedom isn't going to fly either. Once you go down that path, there are plenty of people who could argue that "socialized medicine" takes away basic legal rights including the right to contract. So if that's your argument, one could have just as easily said Ebert should have been silenced for his political views by couching it in anti-freedom terminology.

You and sideous618 deciding what views can and cannot be aired because of what you might term extremism or bigotry are simply the modern day version of the people who felt justified in censoring what they called "heresy" or "sedition."

If your viewpoints are supportable you shouldn't fear debate.
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Old April 8 2013, 12:14 AM   #132
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Re: Roger Ebert is dead...

please take this elsewhere. tactlessness is not a virtue.
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Last edited by Avon; April 8 2013 at 12:26 AM.
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Old April 8 2013, 03:36 AM   #133
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Re: Roger Ebert is dead...

Tim Russert was a great political commentator, but he really pissed me off when he offered movie reviews on Meet the Press.
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Old April 8 2013, 04:43 AM   #134
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Re: Roger Ebert is dead...

Opus wrote: View Post
Tim Russert was a great political commentator
Rubbish.
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Old April 8 2013, 08:23 AM   #135
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Re: Roger Ebert is dead...

^Agreed. At least Ebert (if ever he had been a political commentator) would have roasted the asses of the people that appeared before him trying to soft-pedal bullshit, unlike Russert, who could barely challenge the people in both U.S. parties who appeared before him, sharpened as he was by his debates with Gene Siskel.
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