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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old April 7 2013, 11:57 PM   #211
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

SonOfMogh wrote: View Post
Hey thanks for reading my essay!

I respect all opinions, can't all be alike, just my thoughts
You are welcome, and thanks for your answer because you are right, it is totally a personal opinion when you get right down to it.
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Old April 8 2013, 03:21 AM   #212
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

SonOfMogh wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
That's what makes the "Lost Ship" thing unsustainable and uninteresting after a while. TOS was going to do the same "Lost Ship" thing until Roddenberry realized it wouldn't work.

What they should've done is make them truly lost to the point that they don't know how to get back to known Space, or have there be something keeping them from going home. That gives them reason to do genuine exploring and flesh out the area.

For example, by the time they can go home or at least begin to, the 8472 aliens have begun an invasion of our Universe and then they go through a time portal that shows them that in the future, if they don't do something NOW, the 8472 will overwhelm and destroy the Galaxy including the Federation. So they have to put off going home so to put together a Delta Federation to stop them first. That's the driving plot of the show.
Yeah I guess being truly lost would work, although all it would take is to acknowledge that Voyager cannot travel far without scouting for supplies etc and the show can retain it's original premise and still have a reason to explore and build relationships.

I'm not a big fan of driving plots like the one you mentioned. I personally think the best shows either don't have one, or the characterisatation, writing and acting is so good that the show outgrows it's plot to the point it actually becomes the least interesting element.
All the "Lost Ship" shows of the last 40 or so years that are worth remembering (Blake's Seven, LEXX, Farscape) ended up needing a series plot to keep things going. "Gilligan's Island in Space" wears itself out after 2 seasons at best.
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Old April 8 2013, 03:41 AM   #213
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Gilligan's planet only lasted 13 episodes... Although Josie and the Pussy Cats in outer Space lasted almost 3 years... And then they put Fonzie in Space with Laverne and Shirley.

Did you know that there was a serious cocaine problem in the entertainment industry during the 80s?
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Old April 8 2013, 03:45 AM   #214
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

And "Lost in Space" itself was falling into the toilet halfway through the first season after they decided Dr. Smith was the star.
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Old April 8 2013, 03:57 AM   #215
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Anwar wrote: View Post
That's what makes the "Lost Ship" thing unsustainable and uninteresting after a while. TOS was going to do the same "Lost Ship" thing until Roddenberry realized it wouldn't work.
Whatever the virtues of the premise, this part simply isn't true. The original show was never going to end up "lost in space."
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Old April 8 2013, 04:01 AM   #216
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Harvey wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
That's what makes the "Lost Ship" thing unsustainable and uninteresting after a while. TOS was going to do the same "Lost Ship" thing until Roddenberry realized it wouldn't work.
Whatever the virtues of the premise, this part simply isn't true. The original show was never going to end up "lost in space."
Probably not so much "lost" as "so deep into uncharted territory, they don't have a convenient connection to back home".
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Old April 8 2013, 04:09 AM   #217
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

lennier1 wrote: View Post
Harvey wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
That's what makes the "Lost Ship" thing unsustainable and uninteresting after a while. TOS was going to do the same "Lost Ship" thing until Roddenberry realized it wouldn't work.
Whatever the virtues of the premise, this part simply isn't true. The original show was never going to end up "lost in space."
Probably not so much "lost" as "so deep into uncharted territory, they don't have a convenient connection to back home".
Although the original never went back to Earth, as early as Roddenberry's 1964 pitch document the Enterprise's mission included providing assistance to established Earth colonies.
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Old April 8 2013, 04:15 AM   #218
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Harvey wrote: View Post
lennier1 wrote: View Post
Harvey wrote: View Post

Whatever the virtues of the premise, this part simply isn't true. The original show was never going to end up "lost in space."
Probably not so much "lost" as "so deep into uncharted territory, they don't have a convenient connection to back home".
Although the original never went back to Earth, as early as Roddenberry's 1964 pitch document the Enterprise's mission included providing assistance to established Earth colonies.
Not so much "here be dragons" as "new frontier". It's five in the morning. So early I don't really give a shit about semantics.
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Old April 8 2013, 07:42 AM   #219
Anwar
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Harvey wrote: View Post
lennier1 wrote: View Post
Harvey wrote: View Post

Whatever the virtues of the premise, this part simply isn't true. The original show was never going to end up "lost in space."
Probably not so much "lost" as "so deep into uncharted territory, they don't have a convenient connection to back home".
Although the original never went back to Earth, as early as Roddenberry's 1964 pitch document the Enterprise's mission included providing assistance to established Earth colonies.
But the point is that Roddenberry realized that a show that has a hook and a reason for everything that happens (Missions for the Federation) was better than a show where there is no external environment or reasons for things that happen.
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Old April 9 2013, 02:24 PM   #220
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

lennier1 wrote: View Post
Harvey wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
That's what makes the "Lost Ship" thing unsustainable and uninteresting after a while. TOS was going to do the same "Lost Ship" thing until Roddenberry realized it wouldn't work.
Whatever the virtues of the premise, this part simply isn't true. The original show was never going to end up "lost in space."
Probably not so much "lost" as "so deep into uncharted territory, they don't have a convenient connection to back home".
In that regard, it wasn't necessary to strand them in the Delta Quadrant. Space is big. Even a distant border of Federation space--a mere year or two away from Earth at maximum warp perhaps--would have been sufficient. Out on the border, there still would have been opportunity for the ship to encounter new aliens and be far from Earth. They'd be close enough to communicate with Starfleet and hear things that are going on back home (such as the Dominion War), but they'd still be too far away to go back there in a timely fashion.
Anwar wrote: View Post
Harvey wrote: View Post
Although the original never went back to Earth, as early as Roddenberry's 1964 pitch document the Enterprise's mission included providing assistance to established Earth colonies.
But the point is that Roddenberry realized that a show that has a hook and a reason for everything that happens (Missions for the Federation) was better than a show where there is no external environment or reasons for things that happen.
Agreed. An exploration mission was just a reason why the Enterprise was out there, but the ship really did many other kinds of missions for its country along the way. Such missions sometimes brought the Enterprise to a Federation starbase, colony, or member world where we saw other aspects of Federation society and where other kinds of stories (non-alien of the week) can be told. This was true for TNG as much as it was for TOS, IMO.
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Old April 12 2013, 12:59 AM   #221
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Given that VOY was a ship based show it would be compared against TNG, this might not be without foundation as VOY earned the nickname TNG-Lite. Now each and every TV show (no matter the show) has it good and it's bad points. One thing that is often said about VOY is that it had a GREAT premise which it failed to live upto. i.e the ship looked like it had just left Utopia in virtually every episode. A seemingly limitless supply shuttles.

Given the small size of the ship it wasn't unreasnable to expect to get to know some of the other crew members. Now the same could be said of TNG but TNG unlike VOY could have crew coming and going fairly often.

If VOY had been set in the AQ the vast majority of the stories would need little to no change.

Peoples perceptions on VOY might differ depending on the order in which they watched ST. Did they start with VOY and work from their or did they go in order?

VOY had some great episodes but also a large number of poorer episodes. Maybe not a fair comparisson, but S4 if ENT is held up as one of it's best as in that season, and no doubt a fair number of fans if not the majority of them believe this is when it began to live up to what it's premise seemed to be.
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Old April 12 2013, 05:40 AM   #222
Anwar
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
One thing that is often said about VOY is that it had a GREAT premise which it failed to live upto.
That's the thing though, the premise itself was flawed and needed more ironing out. The lack of a plot beyond "Lost Ship" being the main thing.
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Old April 15 2013, 04:51 PM   #223
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
One thing that is often said about VOY is that it had a GREAT premise which it failed to live upto. i.e the ship looked like it had just left Utopia in virtually every episode. A seemingly limitless supply shuttles.
That was one thing I liked about VOY in the beginning was the idea of being stranded so far from home, but it quickly became apparent that they weren't going to do much more with that than refer to "replicator ratios" every so often. Seeing that they got into a firefight every week, you'd expect there to be some lingering damage. But then again that was the work of the reset button on Janeway's console. A series like VOY should have been more serialised, nothing too strict and rigid, but the feeling that previous events impact on other episodes.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Given the small size of the ship it wasn't unreasnable to expect to get to know some of the other crew members. Now the same could be said of TNG but TNG unlike VOY could have crew coming and going fairly often.
VOY should have had more recurring faces in the crew, so that when one was "tragically" killed and had an episode about them we'd actual care about their loss and the future impacts it would have on the crew (ie Ahni Jetal and the friend of Kim's who was brought back as an alien). One thing they definately needed in the background were more alien crewmembers.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
If VOY had been set in the AQ the vast majority of the stories would need little to no change.
Very true, just replace "alien of the week" with Klingon/Romulan/Ferengi/etc. There wasn't much that made the aliens of the DQ stand out other than the fact that 98% of them were evil.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Peoples perceptions on VOY might differ depending on the order in which they watched ST. Did they start with VOY and work from their or did they go in order?
I watched VOY when it first started airing here in the UK and started off liking it. Then Seven arrived and it became little more than shooting at alien ships, weakening the Borg as a big-bad, Seven hogging the screen, dull holographic rights, etc. I missed a lot of season 6 and most of 7, though did catch the final episode (so I was really scratching my head when Chakotay and Seven were a couple, had me going WTF?!?!?!).

MacLeod wrote: View Post
VOY had some great episodes but also a large number of poorer episodes.
When they nailed a good script, they did it very well, but I find that you have to pick through a lot of stinkers to get them.
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Old April 15 2013, 06:32 PM   #224
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Voyager went wrong the moment the Maquis put on Starfleet uniforms. (In fact I found it sort of ridiculous even the Starfleet crew were still wearing uniforms after the second season or so).

A ship stranded alone in the Delta Quadrant should have relied on internal conflict to drive plot, rather than bland aliens-of-the-week, or worse, spatial-anomalies-of-the-week.

There did not need to be open hostility between Starfleet and the Maquis, but some acknowledgement in the character development that they were different kinds of people from different backgrounds.

The ship also had a fairly small crew complement, so there was no reason we couldn't have got to know everyone. I think the show would have been truly great if they had developed serialized concurrent plot threads in different parts of the ship, and made it a true ensemble cast.

Instead, we got the Janeway/Seven/The Doctor hour, where you get a brand new ship every week, and all your problems can be solved at the end of the episode by reconfiguring the deflector dish.
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Old April 15 2013, 06:54 PM   #225
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

I still think it's unfair to criticize the pristine ship look. Many of Voyager's beauty shots were of the physical miniature, which couldn't be easily altered. I don't know when it began using cgi ships extensively, though battle damage would still have meant several versions being built with successive decay, which means new renders and effects, which costs more money. The biggest obstacle was UPN wanting episodic rather than serialized format. Small, three story arcs would have helped in some storylines.
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