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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old April 7 2013, 11:09 PM   #46
indolover
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Well, morality doesn't exist and anything goes in life. I don't think Section 31's actions can really be deemed "wrong". I'm sure many Gamma Quadrant races would deem it poetic justice.
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Old April 7 2013, 11:13 PM   #47
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

indolover wrote: View Post
Well, morality doesn't exist and anything goes in life.
Thankfully an overwhelming majority of humanity disagrees with this sentiment.
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Old April 7 2013, 11:16 PM   #48
indolover
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Samuel Walters wrote: View Post
indolover wrote: View Post
Well, morality doesn't exist and anything goes in life.
Thankfully an overwhelming majority of humanity disagrees with this sentiment.
lol.. can you read minds?
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Old April 7 2013, 11:16 PM   #49
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

he read mine
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Old April 7 2013, 11:50 PM   #50
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

DWF wrote: View Post
If Section 31 had ever intended to use the cure why didn't they let it known that they had it ...
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Let's see, likely Admiral Ross (as a member of S31) knew of the sickness and the cure. And S31 (at least claimed) that the President's inner circle included a S31 member.
junxon wrote: View Post
admiral ross wasn't a member, he just went along with the plan.
Debatable, my point stands. S31 might not have been informing every Captain, Commander and Ensign about the cure, but it's likely that some people higher up knew about it. Within the Admiralty, the Council, the President.
.

Herkimer Jitty wrote: View Post
They're no more a part of the Federation than Cerberus is part of the Systems Alliance.
The people in S31 are apparently from among the member people of the Federation, how do you figure they're not "part of the Federation?"

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Old April 8 2013, 12:07 AM   #51
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Herkimer Jitty wrote: View Post
Pretty much. They're no more a part of the Federation than Cerberus is part of the Systems Alliance.
Though at least Cerberus has their own ships, and armies, and secret bases, and a cooler magnificent bastard chess master boss, and pretty much everything else needed to make them a more effective and scary evil organization then section 31 could ever hope to be.

I mean seriously Section 31 couldn't do crap if they didn't have access to Starfleet toys and personal which is another reason they suck at this. It also makes their bitching about Starfleet idealism hypocritical since they can't do s@#t without either their unknowing help or coerced help.

I mean really why hasn't Starfleet told them to f@#k off already and see how "dangerous" they are when they have to use their own non existent resources. I'd give them a week at most before the organization fell apart.

Cerberus at lest is self sufficient for the most part


T'Girl wrote: View Post
that the President's inner circle included a S31 member.
Actually its been taken to mean that they're SPYING on the president.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Herkimer Jitty wrote: View Post
They're no more a part of the Federation than Cerberus is part of the Systems Alliance.
The people in S31 are apparently from among the member people of the Federation, how do you figure they're not "part of the Federation?"
The same way Cerberus isn't a part of the System's Alliance. they may use resources from it but they don't answer to it. Which makes them a rouge terrorist group.
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Old April 8 2013, 12:42 AM   #52
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

indolover wrote: View Post
Samuel Walters wrote: View Post
indolover wrote: View Post
Well, morality doesn't exist and anything goes in life.
Thankfully an overwhelming majority of humanity disagrees with this sentiment.
lol.. can you read minds?
No. But I read. And study. I think critically and rationally. Then draw informed, intelligent conclusions. If you're interested in evidence, this would be a good place to begin.
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Old April 8 2013, 01:15 AM   #53
indolover
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Samuel Walters wrote: View Post
indolover wrote: View Post
Samuel Walters wrote: View Post
Thankfully an overwhelming majority of humanity disagrees with this sentiment.
lol.. can you read minds?
No. But I read. And study. I think critically and rationally. Then draw informed, intelligent conclusions. If you're interested in evidence, this would be a good place to begin.
Well critical thinking has shown me and frankly many Westerners that morality is non-existent, and that anything goes since nothing is absolute.
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Old April 8 2013, 01:25 AM   #54
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

you going to do the 'greed is good' speech from Wall Street?
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Old April 8 2013, 01:41 AM   #55
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

indolover wrote: View Post
Well critical thinking has shown me and frankly many Westerners that morality is non-existent, and that anything goes since nothing is absolute.
Heh ... in that case, those "many Westerners" are thoroughly ignoring (either willfully or naively) the evolution of the entire foundation of their civilization, dating back to the American and French Revolutions, the Magna Carta, Rome (including the teachings of Christ), and ancient Greece (among many other moral influences).
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Old April 8 2013, 02:37 AM   #56
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

I suppose you agreed with John Calhoun's speech citing that slavery was morally acceptable and a fundamental good for the United States as well.
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Old April 8 2013, 03:04 AM   #57
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

^ To whom (or rather to which argument) is this comment directed?
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Old April 8 2013, 03:05 AM   #58
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
The same way Cerberus isn't a part of the System's Alliance. they may use resources from it but they don't answer to it. Which makes them a rouge terrorist group.
But the people who make up S31, are from within the Federation. Sloan is a human, iirc from Earth. Why would the hundred of billions of people from the many Member worlds have to "answer to" the Federation?

You make the Federation sound like a police state.

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Old April 8 2013, 08:15 AM   #59
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
I think Section 31 often gets too much crap from fans, even though the overwhelming evidence in both from TV and the books show they have done a lot of good work for the Federation.
Please note: I respectfully do not include novels in my opinion as I, by choice, do not count them as canon.

I agree. I thought DS9's introduction of Section 31 was brilliant and fixed a lot of dipshit things incorporated into The Next Generation. The dovish unliteralism was inane and totally unrealistic - it wasn't even a noble ideal.

Then again I would have demoted Picard for not weaponizing Hugh and wholeheartedly agreed with the infecting of The Changlings with a genocidal virus.

I mean, I loved "Star Trek" since the start and loved the future it suggested. None of which included a "peace at all costs and sacrifices" ideology. You strove for peace. A peace built upon a foundation of mutual benefit and respect - not one based on fear or paid for by a loss of self-determination.

BTW, where did that come from? What moron came-up with the Federation signing a treaty that allowed there self-declared antagonists to develope stealth technology unrestricted while they could not even research ways by which to detect such things? How is that anything but stoopid! And what Next Gen imbecile thought the pinnacle of a civilization's moral developement lay in their ability to talk themselves into laying down and excepting extinction?

I start off every episode of DS9 with a moment of silent praise for RDM and company for giving us Section 31.
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Old April 8 2013, 08:31 AM   #60
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

My biggest gripe about Section 31 when i was watching DS9 was it was completely counter to Roddenberry's vision of the future. While I was not opposed to an organization like Section 31 exisiting. The Romulans have the black ops Tal Shiar, and the Romulan military, civillians and other governments know about them. The Obsidian Order was black ops for the Cardassians, and again other governments knew about them. No one outside select few Star Fleet officers who have had interactions with Section 31 and possibly the entire Star Fleet Admiralty and Star Fleet Command knowsabout Section 31. Why so secretive? The fact that the Star Fleet Command would not confirm nor deny it's existence in DS9 'Inquisition' is very telling. While at the time I dismissed the line as writers trying to sound cool using a military phrase usually reserved for secrets and kills, but now after watching Enterprise and comparing Harris' and Sloan's actions i think I understand what Section 31 is.

Section 31 is an organization that acts to preserve and protect humanity. Not the Federation, but humanity. It's in the Earth Star Fleet charter in ENT, all Section 31 members are human we've seen, they are willing to take extreme actions such as genocide of an entire species to win a war, murder and extortion are not above them, and Star Fleet doesn't lift a finger to reprimand them for any of it.

I think fans would be more comfortable with Section 31 if there were public and not a cloak and dagger organization under Star Fleet. Star Fleet Command can say yes they exist but what they do is classified. Like the CIA and MI6. We know they infiltrate terrorist organizations, we know they use drones that kill the civilian populations of countries each occupy, and we know they lead assassinations against nuclear scientists in Iran and other countries. That's Section 31 in the Trekverse.
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