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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old April 7 2013, 05:03 PM   #16
sonak
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

R. Star wrote: View Post
Because the script required a reason for Picard to charge in and save the day.

this, and it was also about making Picard look more like Kirk. The whole "order the Enterprise away from the battle" nonsense was about making Picard look like more of a badass by defying orders and doing what was necessary to charge in and save the day. Making him look more like Kirk, to put it bluntly.
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Old April 7 2013, 06:09 PM   #17
Peach Wookiee
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

There is also the aspect of people in combat taking the first leader that presents himself.
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Old April 7 2013, 06:20 PM   #18
Timo
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

Especially if things are going badly and they know him for a veteran. Or mistake him for one.

The movie might have played it a bit more coyly there, letting the audience wonder whether it was Picard or Locutus speaking there. The man did essentially tell the fleet to stop firing at the Borg ship until he gave them permission, which must have sounded at least a tad suspicious.

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Old April 7 2013, 06:54 PM   #19
Melakon
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

"I'm taking command of the fleet, otherwise this movie will be over in 2 minutes."
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Old April 7 2013, 08:35 PM   #20
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

Captrek wrote: View Post
Considering that Picard was violating orders just by being there, how was he able to take command of the fleet so easily?
Because Admiral Hayes' flagship had been destroyed. (Hayes himself survived the battle but he must have been in an escape pod or somewhere else where he couldn't exercise command.)

Without the fleet commander, Picard found it easy to take command. Probably because of his reputation.
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Old April 7 2013, 08:56 PM   #21
Timo
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

Had some no-name with the correct rank pips shown up and claimed the right to command, it would have been an easy decision - better him than me, the skippers would think. But with Picard/Locutus, it's a choice between salvation by an expert Borg-fighter or assimilation in the hands of the most infamous traitor in recent history, except you can't really choose...

I wonder how many of those captains told their Tactical Officers to slave the weapons to commands from the Enterprise, and how many told them to clandestinely lock them onto her?

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Old April 7 2013, 09:08 PM   #22
R. Star
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

Timo wrote: View Post
It's seniority in rank, not seniority in age. If Ransom gained his fourth pip after Janeway did, he would be Janeway's junior.

No doubt the Starfleet rule about the ship rather than the person mattering makes things considerably clearer in combat. One doesn't need to call up Starfleet records to see which ship is the more powerful combatant...

Although regarding this, the decision to banish both Picard and his ship (rather than, say, send Riker orders to take command of the ship and throw Locutus in the brig, eject him in a lifepod, or execute him) may have been influenced by the E-E not being considered particularly combatworthy. For a parallel in history, the King George V class of battleships was the most powerful in the Royal Navy during the hunt for the Bismarck, but these ships were "the most advanced in the fleet" to their own detriment: HMS Prince of Wales did not have all the kinks worked out yet, and the factory crews still aboard failed to make her gun turrets properly combatworthy before the engagement with the German ship, to the detriment of the British.

Quite possibly, Starfleet thought it could afford to keep the still experimental and unreliable Sovereign class in the sidelines during this Borg invasion. And sending Picard to shake the ship down was fitting punishment for the man who lost the previous Enterprise...

Timo Saloniemi
Yeah, but Janeway recognized him by his reputation as a captain, had records of his tactics all of which suggest he'd been a captain for awhile back before they got lost. Nothing concrete, but it's a reasonable conclusion he'd been a captain for some time.

As for your point about keeping the E-E on the sidelines due to not having worked out the kinks, that's a relevant example and a good one. Crusher did ask if they felt they needed more shakedown time. Though the movie shot that possibility down too since Picard told Riker they had faith in the ship, but not Picard. Which would argue it being silly to sideline "the most advanced ship in the fleet."

Really that made no sense at all being even hardass Necheyev had not qualms about keeping Picard in command against the Borg in Decent and Riker was -the- veteran against them after all. Except to my original point, the script requires Picard to charge in and save the day.
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Old April 7 2013, 10:08 PM   #23
Captrek
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

Williard wrote: View Post
If that is the case and Borg want to assimilate Earth 24th century technology so bad. Why sent one cube. Heck wouldnt it be better sent 2 or 3 cubes to assimilate Earth or just hold one cube at Federation border and if the Cubes fails their mission.
The single cube here and in BOBW seem at odds with Guinan's statement in Q Who:

RIKER: Guinan, if they were that aggressive, why didn't the Borg attack? They could have but they didn't.
GUINAN: They don't do that individually. It's not their way. When they decide to come, they're going to come in force. They don't do anything piecemeal.
Speculative wank: the bulk of the Borg fleet is in the Delta Quadrant and it would take many years for them to get to Earth. They don't have a lot of cubes available for Alpha Quadrant operations, and that's why they use only one when they expect one to be sufficient.

The idea that it would take years for Borg to get from Delta to Alpha would seem to be contradicted by VOY:Endgame, but at the time that BOBW and FC were made, Endgame hadn't even been conceived.

I find it interesting that Janeway's Endgame tactic is the same one used by the Borg in FC: traveling back in time with modern military technology to attack a relatively primitive enemy before they developed the means to defend themselves against it.
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Old April 8 2013, 09:41 AM   #24
Timo
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

Nothing concrete, but it's a reasonable conclusion he'd been a captain for some time.
Agreed. But since Ransom himself never presses this point, we could deduce that the difference in seniority is a slight one, a technicality Ransom would be downright embarrassed to make use of. Perhaps he is the underdog, even, albeit with the narrowest of margins?

Saying "I have the ship with the better survival odds" counts for more in the Delta Quadrant environment than mere "I am entitled to command by Starfleet regulations", so it's quite natural for Janeway to go for that angle and for Ransom to acquiesce. If it became a battle of seniority, that is, experience, the two skippers could debate their Delta Quadrant -specific merits till the cows beam home, but the "Mine is bigger" thing is concise and satisfactory.

Though the movie shot that possibility down too since Picard told Riker they had faith in the ship, but not Picard.
That's just a bitter old man speaking - I wouldn't take it too seriously.

even hardass Necheyev had not qualms about keeping Picard in command against the Borg in Decent
And that's probably it - Picard's status, like that of all other Captains, depends on the backing they receive from the higher levels, and Nechayev just happened to lose some of her political power prior to ST:FC (or decided to drop patronage of Picard in order to retain such power).

The single cube here and in BOBW seem at odds with Guinan's statement in Q Who
...Which may prove that the Borg had different goals, ones the heroes or Guinan had no experience on. Janeway was surprised to learn in "Child's Play" that the Borg "cultivated" cultures by indeed attacking them piecemeal and then reaping the countermeasures the victims would develop, time and again. The Borg might be doing this with Earth, even though our heroes mistake it for assimilarion - or they might do other things piecemeal, too, and neither the heroes nor the audience can really understand what is going on this time around.

Timo Saloniemi

Last edited by Timo; April 8 2013 at 10:00 AM.
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Old April 8 2013, 01:31 PM   #25
Corran Horn
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

Melakon wrote: View Post
"I'm taking command of the fleet, otherwise this movie will be over in 2 minutes."
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Old April 8 2013, 08:09 PM   #26
shatastrophic
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

I don't think it had anything to do with ranks and such. Talk is cheap so there's alot of it. I think every Captain, or officer placed in the captain's seat, took stock of the situation and tried to know about every other ship that was in on the encounter, and which fellow captains they would be fighting with. Im sure every other ship's sensors detected the Enterprise arriving and some of the captains were probably great with it, while others might've been worried.

Then the admiral's ship is destroyed and without skipping a beat Picard is on the airwaves saying he has command and to target all of their weapons onto specific coordinates. All of the other captains, whether they were worried or not, had to follow suit as the blown up admirals plan of taking as many pot shots as you could at the thing wasn't working.

Sure you could go back and ask why this happened or why that happened. But as the situation played out it called for the unusual to occur. These people are Starfleet Captains, working "on the fly" is about 80 percent of their job. The decision came down to; Picards here with that new ship we've heard about telling us to fire at these coordinates vs. Picard's here saying he's in command, should we follow?
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Old April 8 2013, 09:16 PM   #27
Mark_Nguyen
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

Most of us thought that the battle had been going for quite some time, and that most, if not all of the ships left by the time the E-E were in the condition in which we saw the Defiant, or worse. Then, the tired, haggard remaining Captains see the shiny, undamaged Enterprise come sailing in with full shields and weapons blazing. Seconds later Picard is on the horn with plan. After hours (days?) of combat with no real result, darn straight they'll follow it.

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Old April 8 2013, 10:04 PM   #28
USS Firefly
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

Why didn't Picard gave the coordinates of the weak section the moment the battle begun?
Shouldn't every ship in the fleet know the weak points of the Borg?
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Old April 8 2013, 10:32 PM   #29
C.E. Evans
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

USS Firefly wrote: View Post
Why didn't Picard gave the coordinates of the weak section the moment the battle begun?
Shouldn't every ship in the fleet know the weak points of the Borg?
Picard didn't know where the weak section was until after the Enterprise arrived, and only then through his tenuous connection to the Borg. The moment he discovered it, he immediately had its coordinates relayed to the rest of the fleet.
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Old April 8 2013, 10:41 PM   #30
Mark_Nguyen
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Re: I am taking command of the fleet.

Guess it had something to do with being in closer proximity to a Borg ship (and its vinculum, if you REALLY want to believe that sort of thing exists) allowing him to pick up on various drones' status reports to the hive mind. I think the novelization has prose to the effect of Picard hearing voices saying there was significant damage in a particular place which would allow a fatal, cascading explosion if hit. Or something.

In any case, he had to get close enough to go from spooky flashback dreams to actual contact. This continued through the rest of the movie as he was able to hear snippets of what the queen was up to in the basement.

Mark
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