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Old April 7 2013, 04:13 AM   #121
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

DonIago wrote: View Post
What are the three alleged plot holes?
1. The small one concerning the origin of the Borg, David Mack's scenario includes humans, that being the case I believe humans would be species 2, (or one but most likely two), but in canon humans are species 5618.

2. And I thought this one was pretty obvious, the Caeliar have spent eons looking for species more advanced than themselves in order to evolve. Such species are all around them, the Organian's were pretty close to their system. Then there are the Q, the Prophets and their dark side the Pah-raiths, the Metrons and probably the species that constructed the Guardian of Forever, just to name a few. So in all this time the Caeliar had not found a single advanced race? I actually thought that this might be something Mack would answer in a later novel.

3. We are told that only three Caeliar cities survived the destruction of their planet, we are also told that each of the Caeliar cities were relatively uniform in population numbers. Numbers that were pretty stable because they were practically immortal and produced no offspring.

The City of Axion was thrown back in time to the year 1519, they spent the next 65 years looking for a new planet to settle on. Although they possess the knowledge of warp theory and practical applications all the Caeliar choose to travel at less than faster than light speeds - meaning they didn't travel very far to find a new home. Once they chose a place they began to build shells around the planet and it's sun. We are not told exactly how long this took but we are told when the work was about half way along that it would take another thirty years.

The City of Mantilis, was thrown back to 4527 BC, most of it's inhabitants died in the process leaving only a few Caeliar and humans alive. It was from these that the Borg were born.

The City of Kintana, was sent all the way back to another galaxy at the beginning of the Universe, almost 14 billion years. The only view of this Galaxy is seen by Picard and Enterprise.

Enterprise traveled down the subspace tunnel that was formed by Kintana, and at the other end they found a very old galaxy (almost as old as the universe) and every sun in that galaxy was covered by a shell, all the planets, even the stellar dust had all been swept up and used to build those shells.

"The gravimetric disturbances we're reading are from massive number of black holes, including a few that are bigger than any ever seen before...In addition to the singularities, we've detected enough mass to suggest there are billions of very old stars in this galaxy...The reason we can't see them is that they've all been shrouded."
Here is the problem, billions of stars and black holes means at least two billion. We know that a city of the same approximate size took over thirty years just to shroud one planet and one sun. (and a planet is much, much smaller than any sun). But to give a little leeway, lets say it only took 15 years to shroud a sun, given that we have at least 2 billion suns multiplied by 15 years, you still get 30 billion years to shroud all those suns, and the universe is still less than 14 billion years old. The math doesn't work.

So there you are, three plot holes.
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Old April 7 2013, 05:24 AM   #122
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

1. I assumed the Borg's memories of their own origins were damaged. In any event, this might be an "inconsistency" but is hardly a "plot hole", and if that's enough to damage your opinion of the trilogy then I don't think the problem lies with the books.

2. As the Caeliar never ultimately define what they consider more advanced than themselves, it's possible those species wouldn't qualify. Alternately it's possible they had no interaction with those species. Heck, it's possible those species deliberately took steps to evade detection by the Caeliar.

3. It's possible the natives of Kintana found ways to expedite the process, is it not?

In any event, none of these strike me as things that should ruin one's opinions of the books...at worst I'd call them head-scratchers and, shockingly, questions to ask the author before judging his work. They certainly don't constitute "plot holes", as points 1 and 3 have no bearing on the plot, and point 2 could easily be addressed without altering the plot.
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Old April 7 2013, 10:43 AM   #123
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

sayonara maru wrote: View Post
You are missing the point... I am arguing that Stellar Cartography should be as common place on a ship of exploration as are the holodecks and tractor beam.
The Enterprise-D managed without one for seven years!
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Old April 7 2013, 10:52 AM   #124
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

DonIago wrote: View Post
1. I assumed the Borg's memories of their own origins were damaged. In any event, this might be an "inconsistency" but is hardly a "plot hole", and if that's enough to damage your opinion of the trilogy then I don't think the problem lies with the books.
Yep, Borg didn't remember their own origins, and what with those origins being a mad, dying Caeliar and panicked, starving humans, and millenia ago, is understandable. (This from the authors, after I posted about my plot hole about a year ago - why did the Borg try to undo First Contact, if it would undo their own inception?)

The Caeliar probably learned time travel after being hurled back through time. Harnessed, this ability allowed them to build their spheres in no time at all.
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Old April 7 2013, 11:19 AM   #125
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

King Daniel wrote: View Post
sayonara maru wrote: View Post
You are missing the point... I am arguing that Stellar Cartography should be as common place on a ship of exploration as are the holodecks and tractor beam.
The Enterprise-D managed without one for seven years!
Right now I'm reading "stellar Cartography" as where they make maps rather than where they keep the maps.

TNG Lessons

PICARD: I'd like to talk to Doctor Mowray at his archaeological site on Landris Two. Could you put it through to my Ready room?
DATA: I'm sorry, sir, but Stellar Cartography has requested a communications blackout while they run an experiment.
PICARD: How long will it be?
And

Voyager Paturation

JANEWAY: Some of these readings suggest a planet early in its evolution, almost like a primeval Earth.
CHAKOTAY: The people in Stellar Cartography have already nicknamed it Planet Hell.
JANEWAY: So it might be a wild goose chase.
"sigh"

Frakking Picard was frakking a frakking Stellar frakking cartographer!

Is that something any of us should forget?
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Old April 7 2013, 01:26 PM   #126
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

DonIago wrote: View Post
In any event, none of these strike me as things that should ruin one's opinions of the books...at worst I'd call them head-scratchers and, shockingly, questions to ask the author before judging his work. They certainly don't constitute "plot holes", as points 1 and 3 have no bearing on the plot, and point 2 could easily be addressed without altering the plot.
And I agree they do not necessarily "ruin" a book just as they do not necessarily "ruin" and episodic television show such as "Voyager". It's the math one that pulls me out of the story. We are told that the Caelier are xenophobic, that they do not associate with species they believe less than themselves as those species would "expect" help. The same help that the Caelier expected to get for themselves from a superior species.

I have already given the Caelier the benefit of the doubt by allowing them 15 years to shroud a sun. But math says that the Caelier would have to shroud a sun in less than Seven years and all this from a species that refused to travel faster than the speed of light, and refused contact with species deemed lesser than themselves, and at the point of time that Kintana exited their subspace tunnel there was very little chance that any species was more advanced than themselves (unless those species like the Q had lived through the cycles of the Universe). Just the fact that they wouldn't travel faster than light alone makes even the 15 year estimate impossible too.

The fact that you have come up with a plausible assumption doesn't mean that these are not plot holes, your act actually proves my point that they are.

Plot holes are not in and of themselves a mistake, but are a loose end, and I am always glad to find them because plot holes can be used to a great advantage by other writers. The problem with plot holes from the authors standpoint is that it leaves something open that other authors can take advantage of.

My favorite "Voyager" plot hole appeared in "Unforgettable."

CHAKOTAY: But you say we've met before.
KELLIN: About a month ago. I spent several weeks here.
If you check the star dates, "about a month ago" would have landed Kellin on Voyager right in the middle of "Killing Game." Fic writers love plot holes, they can be exploited to great advantage. Plot holes leave openings for other interpretations.


King Daniel wrote: View Post
The Caeliar probably learned time travel after being hurled back through time. Harnessed, this ability allowed them to build their spheres in no time at all.
Except in the Books we are told that the Caeliar already have time travel and that ability was what the Columbia MACOs were trying to use to send Columbia back to human territory and in the "proper" time. The Kintana Caeliar even went so far as to make sure that their planet and sun were destroyed to keep from changing time.

For the Kintana Caeliar to use time travel would involve a complete turn around for their group, and that idea would be another exploitation of the plot hole.

My biggest problems with Destiny is the math problem and the way Deanna's pregnancy was used to build tension. It was soap opera at it's worse, and completely unbelievable for me. In discussions with other females in my circle, it is a problem with some of them too. I could not suspend my disbelief, that she would be allowed to go anywhere except home, and never on an away mission to an unknown and shrouded planet.

I had one other big problem (yep I had a lot of little problems), and that is at the scene of Picard lying on the Enterprise's bridge floor sobbing. I cannot even imagine that happening ever.
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Old April 7 2013, 05:52 PM   #127
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

I'd totally forgotten about the Caeliar's refusal to use time travel. It's been years since I read it, my apologies. And I don't remember much about Troi's pregnancy, other than it being my least favourite part of the trilogy.

But Picard breaking down at the end? I can buy that. The Borg had hung over him like a spectre for 15 or so years, and he'd been forced to face them in several situations just prior to Destiny, and confront his own past with them directly in Resistance. Plus, he felt the tendrils of the Caeliar gestalt as they dissolved the last of his implants, which seemed to have a similar mushy effect on Seven. I found the scene quite profound.
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Old April 7 2013, 06:13 PM   #128
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

King Daniel wrote: View Post
I'd totally forgotten about the Caeliar's refusal to use time travel. It's been years since I read it, my apologies. And I don't remember much about Troi's pregnancy, other than it being my least favourite part of the trilogy.

But Picard breaking down at the end? I can buy that. The Borg had hung over him like a spectre for 15 or so years, and he'd been forced to face them in several situations just prior to Destiny, and confront his own past with them directly in Resistance. Plus, he felt the tendrils of the Caeliar gestalt as they dissolved the last of his implants, which seemed to have a similar mushy effect on Seven. I found the scene quite profound.
See and I didn't care much for what happened to Seven either. Thanks for discussing this with me, I truly appreciate it. I kind of got into Destiny because being a Janeway fan fic writer, I wanted to build a plausible Janeway returns and have it fit into the parameters established by Trek Lit. I got about half way through and then early last May a Ford R150 pickup truck not only failed to see a red light, she also failed to see my orange car. I got broadsided by a pickup doing over 40 MPH.

I spent the rest of May in the hospital, with broken bones, a collapsed lung, and a dislocated elbow. My muse took a hike. In August Pocket Books published Kirsten Beyer's The Eternal Tide with Janeway's return, so the urgency to "fix" Janeway's fate was no longer a problem.

Now I hope to finish the story, but as often happens when one has experienced near death, goals change and I find myself thinking more about original characters and original situations.

Discussions like this help to clarify thought and like I said I do appreciate it and your opinion.

Now if I could find some place that would discuss extra dimensions, and jump gates with me, I would be in heaven.
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Old April 7 2013, 06:41 PM   #129
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

The argument that Voyager didn't have a Stellar Cartography department seems doubtful to me. Part of the job would require updating existing maps, and it's likely every ship in the fleet has one or two people trained to do so. Astrometrics also uses such maps, and ENT establishes that the NX-01 had an astrometrics section. Harry and Seven designed Voyager's astrometrics room, which likely expanded on an already existing department. Holodecks may have been used for a similar purpose, if we're talking about examining 360 degree starmaps.
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Old April 7 2013, 06:45 PM   #130
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

King Daniel wrote: View Post
sayonara maru wrote: View Post
You are missing the point... I am arguing that Stellar Cartography should be as common place on a ship of exploration as are the holodecks and tractor beam.
The Enterprise-D managed without one for seven years!
They had one but it just was never used during the TV show.. (re generations and data and picard tracking the rift)
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Old April 7 2013, 06:53 PM   #131
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

Melakon wrote: View Post
The argument that Voyager didn't have a Stellar Cartography department seems doubtful to me. Part of the job would require updating existing maps, and it's likely every ship in the fleet has one or two people trained to do so. Astrometrics also uses such maps, and ENT establishes that the NX-01 had an astrometrics section. Harry and Seven designed Voyager's astrometrics room, which likely expanded on an already existing department. Holodecks may have been used for a similar purpose, if we're talking about examining 360 degree starmaps.
Tom Paris (in Threshold) managed to retrieve a wealth of astrometric data which I believe got integrated into the living star maps they developed throughout the series. This makes having a stellar cartography lab even more critical.

Also, would seem being able to chart certain parts of space on a big picture view would be more desirable to running through them headfirst. (case in point, the swarm episode.. Though i suppose janeways not wanting to spend 10 months going AROUND their space had some merit..)
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Old April 7 2013, 07:07 PM   #132
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

sayonara, do you think your opinions carry much weight around here since you started a thread to say you'd just finished masturbating?
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Old April 7 2013, 07:13 PM   #133
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

King Daniel wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
1. I assumed the Borg's memories of their own origins were damaged. In any event, this might be an "inconsistency" but is hardly a "plot hole", and if that's enough to damage your opinion of the trilogy then I don't think the problem lies with the books.
Yep, Borg didn't remember their own origins, and what with those origins being a mad, dying Caeliar and panicked, starving humans, and millenia ago, is understandable. (This from the authors, after I posted about my plot hole about a year ago - why did the Borg try to undo First Contact, if it would undo their own inception?)

The Caeliar probably learned time travel after being hurled back through time. Harnessed, this ability allowed them to build their spheres in no time at all.
ok before i start, let me state: "Temporal Physics is a Mind Fuck"

First contact was (7 or 8?) odd years before the events of destiny. Temporally, the borg at that time had no clue what the effects of their traveling back through time would do.

Speed up to the events of Destiny.. The very first iteration were clearly psychotic (the mad, malnutrition of the Celiar and the human male and female).. Also their technology was in a very early stage. Therefore, retaining any longterm memory of their origins would be dubious at best (as pointed out by an earlier poster)

Third, the borg collective has been depicted as more akin to a series of terrorist cells. Each individual collective has only a subset of the knowledge of the whole. (ie the borg in the Alpha/Beta quadrant wouldnt have the complete knowledge base of those in the Delta quadrant. If i recall correctly, the Borg queen had no prior knowledge of locutus. Also, the assimilation technologies werent all uniform (TNG, First COntact, Voyager i believed all used differeing methods)..

So while the borg could indeed commune and transfer information with each individual cell (and eventually to the collective as a whole), each cell would naturally evolve in a different manner. (Re Will and Thomas Riker)

I think it is fair to say, that somewhere, there are probably Borg who do indeed have the knowledge of the origins story laid out in Destiny.. just not all of them..

The one commonality all the borg seem to possess is a knowledge of the omega particle. ( I am recalling both novel and some game references)..

One thing that does come to mind, if the borg in book 3 of destiny were more or less "lured" to the existance of an omega particle, did they really have a plan for how they'd use it? I think the desire was to be able to return the Celiar to their original state.. but that seems impossible since the borg "creation" was depicted as an irreversible change.
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Old April 7 2013, 07:17 PM   #134
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

King Daniel wrote: View Post
I'd totally forgotten about the Caeliar's refusal to use time travel. It's been years since I read it, my apologies. And I don't remember much about Troi's pregnancy, other than it being my least favourite part of the trilogy.

But Picard breaking down at the end? I can buy that. The Borg had hung over him like a spectre for 15 or so years, and he'd been forced to face them in several situations just prior to Destiny, and confront his own past with them directly in Resistance. Plus, he felt the tendrils of the Caeliar gestalt as they dissolved the last of his implants, which seemed to have a similar mushy effect on Seven. I found the scene quite profound.
Troi pregnancy never bothered me much.. I thought Doctor Xin Ra Havrei in general was an over the top character (and him biting troi to put her in stasis was ..well.. weak.. ) Diversity is diversity but no one wants to live next door to a crack head... or a tyrannosaurus rex)
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Old April 7 2013, 07:26 PM   #135
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

junxon wrote: View Post
sayonara, do you think your opinions carry much weight around here since you started a thread to say you'd just finished masturbating?
I dunno.. is it working?
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