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Old April 7 2013, 01:59 PM   #31
randomfan86
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Second - your ~'other countries would do the same' - is juvenile excusism, based on no evidence at all. Merely the unfounded rhetorical statement that ~'the other guys are equally bad/worse'.
You really think the PLA who was more than happy to initiate Tienamen wouldn't hesitate?
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Old April 7 2013, 02:57 PM   #32
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Second - your ~'other countries would do the same' - is juvenile excusism, based on no evidence at all. Merely the unfounded rhetorical statement that ~'the other guys are equally bad/worse'.
You really think the PLA who was more than happy to initiate Tienamen wouldn't hesitate?
In 'other countries' I include primarily liberal democracies with nuclear capabilities - as USA is. Your ~'other countries would do the same' has no foundament in facts when it comes to them.
Your rhetoric is doubtful even when it comes to China or Russia.

Only when one looks at the likes of North Korea or Iran can one claim what you did with any validity. Your statement can only pass when measured against such low standards.
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Old April 7 2013, 02:59 PM   #33
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
DWF wrote: View Post
I'm kind of at a loss as do how Section 31 won the war, it was the cure that they were unwilling to give that in the end won the war. And there was no accountability for Section 31's attempted use of genocide to end the war, If anything in creating Section 31 it gave the writers an out in allowing genocide to bve used and not have it blamed on the Federation.
Lets be fair, who started the war? Who was trying to enslave the other side? Who openly talked about destroying Earth? Don't play the game if you don't want to get hurt.

If they were to be held to account, they would be given medals and showered with praise.

Oto curing the female changeling was what helped win them the war. If there was no virus, that wouldn't have happened and a bloody last battle might have ensued costing millions of lives. Furthermore, it was the ultimate insurance policy in case things went downhill or remained a stalemate.
Who started the war? Bajor did by placing a colony in Dominion space and by calling attention to the wormhole. And no I wouldn't want to give metals to people wanting to use genocide to stop a war.
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Old April 7 2013, 03:21 PM   #34
Merry Christmas
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
indeed, the japanese cities were chosen due to their geography (in order to focus the explosion, ensuring greater destruction/number of dead civilians
If that were the case (which it isn't), then Nagasaki with it's "lumpy" topography would never have been on the list.

Both both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen because they were military targets.

DWF wrote: View Post
I'm kind of at a loss as do how Section 31 won the war, it was the cure that they were unwilling to give that in the end won the war.
It was S31's actions that hastened the war's ending. Creating both a sickness and a cure gave the Federation (of which they are a part) a bargaining chip, a lever, to shorten the war.

And there was no accountability for Section 31's attempted use of genocide to end the war ...
More the threat of genocide really, if S31 sole purpose was genocide (which it wasn't) then why would S31 have created a cure?

It was a way of manipulating the Founders, which the Federation through conventional military attacks by Starfleet had no access to.

junxon wrote: View Post
... 'who was he? not my problem!'

if only you could do that when you kill a CIA agent ...
Well you could say that (in a court of law) at your murder trial. Or you could stand up as a honest man and admit you murdered a government employee in the lawful commission of their duties.

indolover wrote: View Post
That said, Section 31 is an interesting idea, however it undermines the Roddenberry vision.
I seriously doubt a multi-season long war was part of Roddenberry's vision either.

DWF wrote: View Post
Who started the war? Bajor did by placing a colony in Dominion space and by calling attention to the wormhole.
The Bajor colony, while in the gamma quad, was far outside of Dominion space. So was the mouth of the wormhole.

It was the Founders that started the war.


Last edited by Merry Christmas; April 7 2013 at 03:35 PM.
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Old April 7 2013, 03:35 PM   #35
Wintertainment
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

T'Girl wrote: View Post

Well you could say that (in a court of law) at your murder trial. Or you could stand up as a honest man and admit you murdered government employee in the lawful commission of their duties.
a cia agent has no lawful commission to be in my british house. so he's just an intruder, and i'm defending my home.
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Old April 7 2013, 03:44 PM   #36
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
indeed, the japanese cities were chosen due to their geography (in order to focus the explosion, ensuring greater destruction/number of dead civilians
If that were the case (which it isn't), then Nagasaki with it's "lumpy" topography would never have been on the list.

Both both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen because they were military targets.
Look up Hiroshima and the reasons for it being chosen.
Plus, you forgot to address the part about the wooden constructions (generally, you seem to willfully ignore bits of history - they not fitting your attempts to morally bleach events).

BTW, labeling something 'military target' (pretty arbitrarily, in this case) does not give one a moral free pass; indeed, it's only a particularly poor attempt at justifying whatever.
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Old April 7 2013, 03:52 PM   #37
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
becuase a lot of what they did was idiotic and/or an extreme over reaction.
Yet it was S31's actions (and not those of Starfleet Intelligence) that ended the Dominion War sooner than solely military action would have.
Yes, one whole battle why section 31 truly saved the Federation some effort there

Obviously the attempted genocide was the only way to get the Dominion to give up a lost cause.

I mean its not like they could promise safe passage or some other deal to a still rational Founder, no they had to use the promise of saving her species to a probably unhinged Founder who was ready to go out in the blaze of glory

junxon wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post

Well you could say that (in a court of law) at your murder trial. Or you could stand up as a honest man and admit you murdered government employee in the lawful commission of their duties.
a cia agent has no lawful commission to be in my british house. so he's just an intruder, and i'm defending my home.
But is killing him really necessary, instead of oh I don't know calling the cops?

I mean since when has Britain turned into Texas?
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Old April 7 2013, 03:56 PM   #38
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
BTW, labeling something 'military target' (pretty arbitrarily, in this case) does not give one a moral free pass; indeed, it's only a particularly poor attempt at justifying whatever.
No the justifying comes from the fact that it was either this or an invasion of Japan, and considering how most attacks on Japanese held territory in the war went that WEREN'T their country it's safe to say such an invasion may have been a blood bath on both sides.

And in this case its justifying it as the lesser of two evils.
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Old April 7 2013, 03:59 PM   #39
Wintertainment
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

junxon wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post

Well you could say that (in a court of law) at your murder trial. Or you could stand up as a honest man and admit you murdered government employee in the lawful commission of their duties.
a cia agent has no lawful commission to be in my british house. so he's just an intruder, and i'm defending my home.
But is killing him really necessary, instead of oh I don't know calling the cops?

I mean since when has Britain turned into Texas?
thats a conservative government for you! ho ho!

but seriously i was just being over the top. if theres no accountability, no one knows what their objectives are. can you trust them when they say 'we're doing all this to protect you' ? and if the federation has no power over them are they even part of it anymore?
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Old April 7 2013, 04:40 PM   #40
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
BTW, labeling something 'military target' (pretty arbitrarily, in this case) does not give one a moral free pass; indeed, it's only a particularly poor attempt at justifying whatever.
No the justifying comes from the fact that it was either this or an invasion of Japan, and considering how most attacks on Japanese held territory in the war went that WEREN'T their country it's safe to say such an invasion may have been a blood bath on both sides.

And in this case its justifying it as the lesser of two evils.
I already covered this argument:
"USA used the atomic bombs because it wanted to prevent further russian advances and to reduce the casualty number of its own soldiers (the relevant decision makers of the time admitted as much).
It didn't care in the least about reducing the number of japanese casualties or about any moral calculus along those lines - indeed, the japanese cities were chosen due to their geography (in order to focus the explosion, ensuring greater destruction/number of dead civilians) and to the fact that many buildings were made of wood (in order to burn, again ensuring greater destruction/number of dead civilians)."

Plus, it's doubtful that an invasion of Japan would have been even necessary - let alone be more costly in human lives than the atomic bombings.
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Last edited by Edit_XYZ; April 7 2013 at 05:53 PM.
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Old April 7 2013, 04:59 PM   #41
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
BTW, labeling something 'military target' (pretty arbitrarily, in this case) does not give one a moral free pass; indeed, it's only a particularly poor attempt at justifying whatever.
No the justifying comes from the fact that it was either this or an invasion of Japan, and considering how most attacks on Japanese held territory in the war went that WEREN'T their country it's safe to say such an invasion may have been a blood bath on both sides.

And in this case its justifying it as the lesser of two evils.

this is historical myth. Japan was already on the verge of conditional surrender by the bombing of Hiroshima, they were using the USSR as a go-between. What they were concerned with was the preservation of the emperor. Dropping the a-bomb was about making sure that it was an unconditional surrender and it was about intimidating the USSR with what America could do. Either way, an invasion of the homeland would not have been necessary. And if they had needed to use the atom bomb, a demonstration in an uninhabited area could have been made.
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Old April 7 2013, 06:15 PM   #42
DWF
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

T'Girl;7909939[QUOTE=DWF wrote: View Post
I'm kind of at a loss as do how Section 31 won the war, it was the cure that they were unwilling to give that in the end won the war. It was S31's actions that hastened the war's ending. Creating both a sickness and a cure gave the Federation (of which they are a part) a bargaining chip, a lever, to shorten the war.

More the threat of genocide really, if S31 sole purpose was genocide (which it wasn't) then why would S31 have created a cure?

It was a way of manipulating the Founders, which the Federation through conventional military attacks by Starfleet had no access to.
DWF wrote: View Post
Who started the war? Bajor did by placing a colony in Dominion space and by calling attention to the wormhole.
The Bajor colony, while in the gamma quad, was far outside of Dominion space. So was the mouth of the wormhole.

It was the Founders that started the war.

If Section 31 had ever intended to use the cure why didn't they let it known that they had it instead of letting Earth and Betazed get attacked? And for that matter why hide the fact that they had the cure in the first place let alone the fact that they spread the virus in the first place? And where's the proof that the Bajorian colony was outside of Dominion space, In any event they had no knowledge of the wormhole until after people started coming over to their side of it, their confromtation with the Federation was aided by the discovery of the wormhole.
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Old April 7 2013, 08:24 PM   #43
Merry Christmas
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

DWF wrote: View Post
If Section 31 had ever intended to use the cure why didn't they let it known that they had it instead of letting Earth and Betazed get attacked? And for that matter why hide the fact that they had the cure in the first place.
Let's see, likely Admiral Ross (as a member of S31) knew of the sickness and the cure. And S31 (at least claimed) that the President's inner circle included a S31 member.

Initially the sickness had to be kept a secret from the Founders so they wouldn't contain the spread, perhaps quarantine their own people who traveled to and from the alpha quad.

Even after knowledge of the sickness and the cure moved outside of S31, the Federation Council (who might have known about it from the start) made the decision to withhold it until they thought it wise to release it to the Founders.

At that point, it became a political decision.


Last edited by Merry Christmas; April 7 2013 at 11:29 PM.
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Old April 7 2013, 10:08 PM   #44
Wintertainment
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

admiral ross wasn't a member, he just went along with the plan.
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Old April 7 2013, 10:25 PM   #45
Herkimer Jitty
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Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

junxon wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

junxon wrote: View Post

a cia agent has no lawful commission to be in my british house. so he's just an intruder, and i'm defending my home.
But is killing him really necessary, instead of oh I don't know calling the cops?

I mean since when has Britain turned into Texas?
thats a conservative government for you! ho ho!

but seriously i was just being over the top. if theres no accountability, no one knows what their objectives are. can you trust them when they say 'we're doing all this to protect you' ? and if the federation has no power over them are they even part of it anymore?
Pretty much. They're no more a part of the Federation than Cerberus is part of the Systems Alliance.

Section 31 is more a cabal than anything else.
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