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Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

 
 
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Old April 6 2013, 09:38 AM   #226
Awesome Possum
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

For what it's worth, Dick Cheney is human scum. He can only be admired in the same way as a Xenomorph or a shark. Perfect at what it does, but nothing to emulate. He helped get us into a moronic war based on lies. The blood of every man, woman and child who died during that war is on his hands and the hands of every politician who didn't try to stop it.

Also I also saw Zero Dark Thirty. They clearly showed that torture doesn't get results. A traditional interrogation did. Do you understand what that means? One worked, one didn't. That doesn't mean both work. It's simple, binary, a cat could understand it.

Also I recommend you check out the Governor on Walking Dead. Seems like your kind of hero. He does what needs to be done in order to survive. You kill or you die.
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Old April 6 2013, 02:08 PM   #227
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
Also I also saw Zero Dark Thirty. They clearly showed that torture doesn't get results. A traditional interrogation did. Do you understand what that means? One worked, one didn't. That doesn't mean both work. It's simple, binary, a cat could understand it.
No need for the condescending tone. It clearly showed that torture softened him up. When they were doing the traditional interrogation right after they tortured him, he figured out that they were lying to him (about giving up information during the torture sessions) and started to not answer, but they threatened him "do you want to get tortured again?" The answer was no and he started to comply.

The film dramatized the torture but was still excellent overall. The CIA was more systematic and clinical with their torture. They would always ask the subjects control questions, and those that didn't comply would be tortured until they induced a state of compliance. Then they would start asking for the real information with traditional techniques. The name for bin Ladin's courier really did come out of one of the people who was tortured.

Being systematic and clinical are crucial to the efficacy of torture. If you are just trying to pin something on someone, and want to torture someone for the answer you want to hear, it'll end in disaster. We sent an Al-Qaeda leader to Egypt to be tortured more harshly and that was where the "Saddam is linked with al-qaeda and is helping to get WMD's for them" justification came from. I don't think you can blame the tactic of torture, in and of itself, for this failure, rather I'd blame the desire that existed to pin something on Saddam and the inappropriate application of the tactic.

Last edited by randomfan86; April 6 2013 at 02:46 PM.
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Old April 6 2013, 03:04 PM   #228
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

yeah thats the problem, inefficient torture.
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Old April 6 2013, 05:09 PM   #229
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
Also I also saw Zero Dark Thirty. They clearly showed that torture doesn't get results. A traditional interrogation did. Do you understand what that means? One worked, one didn't. That doesn't mean both work. It's simple, binary, a cat could understand it.
Okay while I admit that this might not be true, but wasn't the torture stuff something the film made up, becuase I remember an article mentioning inaccuracies in films based on real event mentioning that.
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Old April 6 2013, 05:36 PM   #230
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
It clearly showed that torture softened him up. When they were doing the traditional interrogation right after they tortured him, he figured out that they were lying to him (about giving up information during the torture sessions) and started to not answer, but they threatened him "do you want to get tortured again?" The answer was no and he started to comply.

The film dramatized the torture but was still excellent overall. The CIA was more systematic and clinical with their torture. They would always ask the subjects control questions, and those that didn't comply would be tortured until they induced a state of compliance. Then they would start asking for the real information with traditional techniques. The name for bin Ladin's courier really did come out of one of the people who was tortured.

Being systematic and clinical are crucial to the efficacy of torture. If you are just trying to pin something on someone, and want to torture someone for the answer you want to hear, it'll end in disaster. We sent an Al-Qaeda leader to Egypt to be tortured more harshly and that was where the "Saddam is linked with al-qaeda and is helping to get WMD's for them" justification came from. I don't think you can blame the tactic of torture, in and of itself, for this failure, rather I'd blame the desire that existed to pin something on Saddam and the inappropriate application of the tactic.
What a barbaric, inhuman, and unconscionable post. Disgusting. To think that we can so dehumanize torture into being "systematic and clinical" ... that such robotic efficiency is what justifies and validates the act.

Shameful.

Then again, this is from someone posting the defense of a character who executed children, so ...
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Old April 6 2013, 07:42 PM   #231
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

yeah.. logic and human decency don't count for much in the mind of someone that idolises dick cheney
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Old April 7 2013, 12:33 AM   #232
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Samuel Walters wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post
It clearly showed that torture softened him up. When they were doing the traditional interrogation right after they tortured him, he figured out that they were lying to him (about giving up information during the torture sessions) and started to not answer, but they threatened him "do you want to get tortured again?" The answer was no and he started to comply.

The film dramatized the torture but was still excellent overall. The CIA was more systematic and clinical with their torture. They would always ask the subjects control questions, and those that didn't comply would be tortured until they induced a state of compliance. Then they would start asking for the real information with traditional techniques. The name for bin Ladin's courier really did come out of one of the people who was tortured.

Being systematic and clinical are crucial to the efficacy of torture. If you are just trying to pin something on someone, and want to torture someone for the answer you want to hear, it'll end in disaster. We sent an Al-Qaeda leader to Egypt to be tortured more harshly and that was where the "Saddam is linked with al-qaeda and is helping to get WMD's for them" justification came from. I don't think you can blame the tactic of torture, in and of itself, for this failure, rather I'd blame the desire that existed to pin something on Saddam and the inappropriate application of the tactic.
What a barbaric, inhuman, and unconscionable post. Disgusting. To think that we can so dehumanize torture into being "systematic and clinical" ... that such robotic efficiency is what justifies and validates the act.

Shameful.

Then again, this is from someone posting the defense of a character who executed children, so ...
To call the post what you did is gratuitous. I merely added what I felt were appropriate descriptions of how the CIA actually carried out the program, contrary to what is being portrayed in Zero Dark Thirty and other media. Being "systematic and clinical" in one's approach can be the difference between success and failure in many endeavors.

Being sufficiently "systematic and clinical" in one's procedure can be the difference between success and failure of a drug during clinical trials. In fact, sometimes a drug is rejected based on the trial being insufficiently systematic and clinical, leading to poor results. Once the procedure is corrected by the investigators, and the trial redone, the drug is approved and can go on to save lives. The drug isn't the variable that has changed.

I should also note that the EIT/torture program run by the CIA has saved lives and led to the name of bin Ladin's courier. This is acknowledged by national security officials of both major parties.

Last edited by randomfan86; April 7 2013 at 01:03 AM.
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Old April 7 2013, 12:44 AM   #233
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

junxon wrote: View Post
yeah.. logic and human decency don't count for much in the mind of someone that idolises dick cheney
I do not "idolize" Dick Cheney. Everyone has their bad decisions and my last paragraph warning about the dangers of not using torture in a correct way could be interpreted as an implicit criticism of him.

During 9/11, two planes had crashed into the WTC, and one into the Pentagon. There was a fourth plane that was still in play headed toward Washington. Bush was out of the picture and Cheney was the one running things from his undisclosed location. There was a question floating around the room as to what to do about the 4th plane, a situation like this had never occurred. When it got to Cheney, he unequivocally and without hesitation announced that we were going to shoot it down. The other people in the room were amazed at his certainty. The plane went onto crash on its own due to the brave men and women of Flight 93 before the decision could be carried out.

Cain: "You showed me that you are capable of setting aside your fear, of setting aside your hesitation and even your revulsion -- every natural inhibition that during battle can be the difference between life and death. When you can do this for as long as you have to, then you're a Razor"

From his decision on 9/11 to his decision to use torture, I would say Cheney fits the criteria.

Last edited by randomfan86; April 7 2013 at 02:30 AM.
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Old April 7 2013, 02:12 AM   #234
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Samuel Walters wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post
It clearly showed that torture softened him up. When they were doing the traditional interrogation right after they tortured him, he figured out that they were lying to him (about giving up information during the torture sessions) and started to not answer, but they threatened him "do you want to get tortured again?" The answer was no and he started to comply.

The film dramatized the torture but was still excellent overall. The CIA was more systematic and clinical with their torture. They would always ask the subjects control questions, and those that didn't comply would be tortured until they induced a state of compliance. Then they would start asking for the real information with traditional techniques. The name for bin Ladin's courier really did come out of one of the people who was tortured.

Being systematic and clinical are crucial to the efficacy of torture. If you are just trying to pin something on someone, and want to torture someone for the answer you want to hear, it'll end in disaster. We sent an Al-Qaeda leader to Egypt to be tortured more harshly and that was where the "Saddam is linked with al-qaeda and is helping to get WMD's for them" justification came from. I don't think you can blame the tactic of torture, in and of itself, for this failure, rather I'd blame the desire that existed to pin something on Saddam and the inappropriate application of the tactic.
What a barbaric, inhuman, and unconscionable post. Disgusting. To think that we can so dehumanize torture into being "systematic and clinical" ... that such robotic efficiency is what justifies and validates the act.

Shameful.

Then again, this is from someone posting the defense of a character who executed children, so ...
To call the post what you did is gratuitous. I merely added what I felt were appropriate descriptions of how the CIA actually carried out the program, contrary to what is being portrayed in Zero Dark Thirty and other media. Being "systematic and clinical" in one's approach can be the difference between success and failure in many endeavors.

Being sufficiently "systematic and clinical" in one's procedure can be the difference between success and failure of a drug during clinical trials. In fact, sometimes a drug is rejected based on the trial being insufficiently systematic and clinical, leading to poor results. Once the procedure is corrected by the investigators, and the trial redone, the drug is approved and can go on to save lives. The drug isn't the variable that has changed.

I should also note that the EIT/torture program run by the CIA has saved lives and led to the name of bin Ladin's courier. This is acknowledged by national security officials of both major parties.
The only thing amiss with my post is that I should have added "delusional" to the description of yours.
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Old April 7 2013, 02:17 AM   #235
randomfan86
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
Also I also saw Zero Dark Thirty. They clearly showed that torture doesn't get results. A traditional interrogation did. Do you understand what that means? One worked, one didn't. That doesn't mean both work. It's simple, binary, a cat could understand it.
Okay while I admit that this might not be true, but wasn't the torture stuff something the film made up, becuase I remember an article mentioning inaccuracies in films based on real event mentioning that.
As I've said in my other posts, the torture was definitely dramatized. In real life it was much more systematic and clinical. However, the name of bin Ladin's courier did result from someone who was tortured in real life as well as in the movie so that part is accurate.
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Old April 7 2013, 02:33 AM   #236
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Tensions are higher than a summer in Mordor. How about if I close the thread for awhile, and we return to the discussion regarding Cain at a later time? After tempers have calmed and the political nature has been diluted - not to mention the interpersonal sniping - then I can re-open it.


ETA: After considering the circumstances of the thread and the others it has inspire, I've decided to leave this thread closed. If there is any sincere desire to pursue discussion about Admiral Cain, feel free to start a new thread with aim towards avoiding the pitfalls of this one.
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Last edited by Neroon; April 7 2013 at 11:10 PM.
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