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Old April 6 2013, 07:39 PM   #106
NightJim
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

On my current rewatch I've not long seen a gel pack for the first time and I was nearly in hysterics. It's just a plastic bag with a graphics card strapped to it. I realise that even today someone who recognises that are not that common place, but for those that do it was a bit of jarring moment.

But with regards to Voyager's design/role. The fact the Badlands mission was only expected to be three weeks I felt said a lot about what the Class was intended for. No Enterprise like 5 year/ongoing missions. This was a Go-out-do-the-mission-come-home type of ship. Which makes the 75 year journey that much more problematic. Not stripped down to the point of the Defiant, but it was no cruise ship like the Ent-D. But I'm massively speculating here.
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Old April 6 2013, 08:10 PM   #107
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

Comparing the Galaxy class to the Intrepid class in terms of things like the Arboretum or even Stellar Cartography is just silly; they had completely different mission profiles. At that point, why not ask why a runabout doesn't have either one of those?
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Old April 6 2013, 11:29 PM   #108
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

You are missing the point... I am arguing that Stellar Cartography should be as common place on a ship of exploration as are the holodecks and tractor beam.

My other point is that they BUILT the hydroponics bay ad hoc.. The writers however didnt see the need to make it as glamorous as the arboretum for some odd reason, which I feel is contrary to the fact that for all intents and purposes, this is their HOME.. and needs to be made more habitable for the long term.

You cant tell me with a straight face that a holo reproduction of a french whores bar adds more value than an arboretum



DonIago wrote: View Post
Comparing the Galaxy class to the Intrepid class in terms of things like the Arboretum or even Stellar Cartography is just silly; they had completely different mission profiles. At that point, why not ask why a runabout doesn't have either one of those?
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Old April 6 2013, 11:31 PM   #109
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

No one needs an arboretum on a three week mission.

Heck I could stay inside for 3 months and probably not even notice a lack of plants.
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Old April 6 2013, 11:34 PM   #110
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

LOL... as funny as this is... i do have to point out the obvious to you and the guy before.. Voyager was hardly designed exclusively for a three week mission.

teacake wrote: View Post
No one needs an arboretum on a three week mission.

Heck I could stay inside for 3 months and probably not even notice a lack of plants.
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Old April 7 2013, 12:00 AM   #111
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

A holodeck is all things to all people. Much better use of space than an aboretum.
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Old April 7 2013, 12:32 AM   #112
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

teacake wrote: View Post
A holodeck is all things to all people. Much better use of space than an aboretum.
Besides: "Computer, load arboretum program #47."
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Old April 7 2013, 12:50 AM   #113
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

sayonara maru wrote: View Post
Something that really bothered me about Voyager is how EXTREMELY CHEAP the interior of the ship looked. The enterprise D was very elegant. The bridge was distinct and all the primary stations were recognizable. The defiant was also very detailed and well designed.

BUT ON VOYAGER:

..Everything seems to be made of this icky fisher price looking gray plastic

..The helmsmen sits in an office depot desk chair

..The captains chair isnt even iconic like it is on the Enterprise A, B, C, D and E... or the Defiant.. That bothered the shit out of me.

..There seem to be at least 4 different "conference" rooms. They are so drab and spartan you dont care if they are deciding the fate of the galaxy or planning a tea party

..No Ten Forward or Bar.. instead the crew spend all their time in a holodeck???

..Engineering is only SLIGHTLY better but not by much. I hate to keep rehashing it but when you were in engineering on geordi's enterprise, you knew and felt it.

..Having the nacelles go into "flight mode" everytime you go to warp is ridiculous. How long does it take to angle the pylons 45 degrees before you engage? Just long enough for someone to take out the warp drive? (which seems to happen constantly)


I dont know why production values on voyager were so thrift shop but I think its one of the major reasons this iteration of star trek faired so poorly. Ive also seen some of the other posters comments about the characters and story writing and have to agree with many of them.
If you feel this way about Voyager...can I ask why you are constantly ONLY posting on the Voyager forum?
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Old April 7 2013, 01:20 AM   #114
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

I happen to be watching Voyager at the moment. Is it a problem posting things about it in the Voyager forum??

Also, the rules say i need to post like 50 messages before I am considered a full member or something. I had to pay a dollar to get my account approved /validated.

Besides...There seem to be some good Star Trek geeks here! I just want to participate.

Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post
If you feel this way about Voyager...can I ask why you are constantly ONLY posting on the Voyager forum?

Last edited by sayonara maru; April 7 2013 at 01:56 AM.
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Old April 7 2013, 01:20 AM   #115
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

sayonara maru wrote: View Post
You are missing the point... I am arguing that Stellar Cartography should be as common place on a ship of exploration as are the holodecks and tractor beam.

My other point is that they BUILT the hydroponics bay ad hoc.. The writers however didnt see the need to make it as glamorous as the arboretum for some odd reason, which I feel is contrary to the fact that for all intents and purposes, this is their HOME.. and needs to be made more habitable for the long term.

You cant tell me with a straight face that a holo reproduction of a french whores bar adds more value than an arboretum



DonIago wrote: View Post
Comparing the Galaxy class to the Intrepid class in terms of things like the Arboretum or even Stellar Cartography is just silly; they had completely different mission profiles. At that point, why not ask why a runabout doesn't have either one of those?
Clearly Stellar Cartography on the scale that a Galaxy class vessel possesses it is not considered a priority for an Intrepid class ship, which has much less volume and is not designed for the same types of missions. Presumably if and when Starfleet feels that an Intrepid class ship should be sent on such a mission they outfit it accordingly.

I imagine an Arboretum is considered a "luxury" by Starfleet, and while it would be included on a Galaxy class ship which is essentially intended to be all things to all missions, it wouldn't be included on an Intrepid class vessel where it would be little more than a curiosity.

Given that holodecks have proven that they're not just tools for entertainment but can also prove useful to missions in ways that can't necessarily be anticipated, and they don't take up a whole lot of internal volume, I don't see why they wouldn't be included. Especially since they could likely fake both an arboretum and Stellar Cartography to a limited extent if needed.

If you're going to argue that "X ship should include Y", you should really include -why- you feel that way.

BTW, why are you blaming the writers for not making hydroponics a more exciting set? How was it in any way their decision?

I can and will tell you with a straight face (ironic considering I'm gay), that a holodeck adds more value than an arboretum.

I believe this has been brought up before, but I and I believe other posters would appreciate it if you included quoted text -before- your new material, to increase readability and as a courtesy. Thank you.
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Old April 7 2013, 01:21 AM   #116
sayonara maru
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

I knew someone might say that! It just isnt the same though. Besides I dont think the guys are wasting holodeck rations on a pretty garden..

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
A holodeck is all things to all people. Much better use of space than an aboretum.
Besides: "Computer, load arboretum program #47."
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Old April 7 2013, 01:25 AM   #117
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

sayonara maru wrote: View Post
I knew someone might say that! It just isnt the same though. Besides I dont think the guys are wasting holodeck rations on a pretty garden..

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
A holodeck is all things to all people. Much better use of space than an aboretum.
Besides: "Computer, load arboretum program #47."
...So, you've stood in a holodeck?

Ironic that you bring up rations...if the crew's rationing in any case, why create an arboretum when they could use the space for more essential needs?
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Old April 7 2013, 01:40 AM   #118
sayonara maru
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

DonIago wrote: View Post

Clearly Stellar Cartography on the scale that a Galaxy class vessel possesses it is not considered a priority for an Intrepid class ship, which has much less volume and is not designed for the same types of missions. Presumably if and when Starfleet feels that an Intrepid class ship should be sent on such a mission they outfit it accordingly.
My argument is.. that kind of judgement shouldnt be used regarding a "resource" like SC, tractor beam, holodecks or cargo bays on a vessel clearly classified as an exploration craft... which is like 80% of starfleet vessels. This wouldnt be appropriate for say the defiant (or that runabout wisecrack another poster mentioned)

Per Memory Alpha: "The Intrepid-class was designed for long-term exploration missions."

DonIago wrote: View Post
I imagine an Arboretum is considered a "luxury" by Starfleet, and while it would be included on a Galaxy class ship which is essentially intended to be all things to all missions, it wouldn't be included on an Intrepid class vessel where it would be little more than a curiosity.
So I was trying to make a point that since Voyager was trapped on a long term exploration mission, it would be practical to have an Arboretum for the sake of growing food, having a picnic and in general making the ship feel less utilitarian and more like a long term home. Since Kes was allowed to make a hydroponics bay to meet some of those needs, it seems foolish for the writers not to expand it into a fully functional arboretum

DonIago wrote: View Post
Given that holodecks have proven that they're not just tools for entertainment but can also prove useful to missions in ways that can't necessarily be anticipated, and they don't take up a whole lot of internal volume, I don't see why they wouldn't be included. Especially since they could likely fake both an arboretum and Stellar Cartography to a limited extent if needed.
No argument re the holodecks. Its established they are critical. These comments about "not needed for a ship of this class" and "limited space" are weak excuses. This is a fiction. Space and practicality is limited only by the writers imaginations



DonIago wrote: View Post
If you're going to argue that "X ship should include Y", you should really include -why- you feel that way.
I very much thought I was doing so on various posts. Feel free to point out one that might be in error.

DonIago wrote: View Post
BTW, why are you blaming the writers for not making hydroponics a more exciting set? How was it in any way their decision?
Perhaps "design and logistics" team is more appropriate?

DonIago wrote: View Post
I can and will tell you with a straight face (ironic considering I'm gay), that a holodeck adds more value than an arboretum.
My comment was more meant to point out that the crew.. (oh hell.. the damned writers again)... seem to have Chatau De Paris running 24/7 as their only means of recreation. And I think i mentioned earlier that since the design team found the hydro pon bay added value for a lost in space ship, the arboretum is a more reasonable decision


DonIago wrote: View Post
I believe this has been brought up before, but I and I believe other posters would appreciate it if you included quoted text -before- your new material, to increase readability and as a courtesy. Thank you.
Apologies to all! I really wasnt paying attention. Im new here so I'll hope you'll forgive the oversight.. Will make sure to avoid this in the future..
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Old April 7 2013, 03:49 AM   #119
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

sayonara maru wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post

Clearly Stellar Cartography on the scale that a Galaxy class vessel possesses it is not considered a priority for an Intrepid class ship, which has much less volume and is not designed for the same types of missions. Presumably if and when Starfleet feels that an Intrepid class ship should be sent on such a mission they outfit it accordingly.
My argument is.. that kind of judgement shouldnt be used regarding a "resource" like SC, tractor beam, holodecks or cargo bays on a vessel clearly classified as an exploration craft... which is like 80% of starfleet vessels. This wouldnt be appropriate for say the defiant (or that runabout wisecrack another poster mentioned)

Per Memory Alpha: "The Intrepid-class was designed for long-term exploration missions."
I'm going to have to take issue with that statement. It doesn't agree with my understanding of the Intrepid class's mission profile, and MA doesn't source the statement. In short, I find it dubious. In fact, the article itself is tagged for possible accuracy issues. If a source within the show can be located I'll be happy to reconsider.

As for tractor beams and cargo bays, they seem to be de facto on Starfleet vessels beyond the size of, say, a runabout. And heck, runabouts have tractor beams. I can see it being the case that SC...at least on the scale the Galaxy Class has it...is too resource-intensive and too off-mission to merit inclusion on an average Intrepid class ship.

sayonara maru wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
I imagine an Arboretum is considered a "luxury" by Starfleet, and while it would be included on a Galaxy class ship which is essentially intended to be all things to all missions, it wouldn't be included on an Intrepid class vessel where it would be little more than a curiosity.
So I was trying to make a point that since Voyager was trapped on a long term exploration mission, it would be practical to have an Arboretum for the sake of growing food, having a picnic and in general making the ship feel less utilitarian and more like a long term home. Since Kes was allowed to make a hydroponics bay to meet some of those needs, it seems foolish for the writers not to expand it into a fully functional arboretum

No argument re the holodecks. Its established they are critical. These comments about "not needed for a ship of this class" and "limited space" are weak excuses. This is a fiction. Space and practicality is limited only by the writers imaginations

I very much thought I was doing so on various posts. Feel free to point out one that might be in error.

Perhaps "design and logistics" team is more appropriate?
In-universe: The crew apparently never felt an arboretum was necessary, as evidenced by the fact that they apparently never built one. Since we're not in their shoes, I don't think we're in a position to question their decision.

Out-of-universe: See below.

Also, you seem to be mixing in-universe and behind-the-scenes in ways which are only designed to support your points. "The writers decided not to expand it into an arboretum", for instance- I see three possible interpretations-

1) The crew decided not to make an arboretum. Well, perhaps they had a reason for it. We don't know as it was never discussed during the show.

2) The writers decided not to expand it. Perhaps they did but were overruled.

3) TPTB decided not to build an arboretum set. See below regarding money and available space and dramatic considerations, i.e. don't build a set if you don't have a good dramatic reason for one.

I'd appreciate it if you could be more clear as to the target of your criticism in future posts.

In any event, I've seen you say that Voyager should have had a Stellar Cartography department on the scale of a Galaxy class ship. I haven't seen you explain why beyond what you've provided above, which I've already addressed.

sayonara maru wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
I can and will tell you with a straight face (ironic considering I'm gay), that a holodeck adds more value than an arboretum.
My comment was more meant to point out that the crew.. (oh hell.. the damned writers again)... seem to have Chatau De Paris running 24/7 as their only means of recreation. And I think i mentioned earlier that since the design team found the hydro pon bay added value for a lost in space ship, the arboretum is a more reasonable decision
I don't think they had any program running 24/7 until Fair Haven, which was...an issue in and of itself. As for the particular program you mention, it doesn't even appear in every season, though I'll admit an argument can be made that it was replaced with programs of perhaps similarly dubious virtue. But the thing is...with the information we have on screen, the crew -does- seem happy with what they have available to them. It's fine to say that if you'd been on the ship you would have wanted other things to do, but it appears that the people who were there were happy with what they had. Besides, the holodeck can be used to create an infinitude of different environments; it's highly unlikely we saw all of the ways in which various members of the crew utilized it.
Since we never saw the Voyager crew discuss the relative benefits of hydroponics versus an arboretum, we can't assume they never discussed it. As for behind-the-scenes, sets take up space and cost money and need to be justified. The hydroponics bay itself was a stretch logistically (did we ever see anything particular exciting occur there?); an arboretum would have been even moreso.

sayonara maru wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
I believe this has been brought up before, but I and I believe other posters would appreciate it if you included quoted text -before- your new material, to increase readability and as a courtesy. Thank you.
Apologies to all! I really wasnt paying attention. Im new here so I'll hope you'll forgive the oversight.. Will make sure to avoid this in the future..
Thanks!
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Old April 7 2013, 04:04 AM   #120
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Re: Was Voyager designed by Sanford and Son?

The holodeck was more than a fantasy playground. It was seen used in training exercises and tactical drills.
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